Political Contradictions

[Hauptman]

I am admittedly somewhere between liberal and libertarian, and so I find myself at odds with conservatives more often than not.

Some of the most painful contradictions I find are focused in conservative, republican, "family values" states. Such as:

- Conservative states have the highest divorce rates.
- They have the highest teenage pregnancy rates.
- They have the highest poverty rates.
- Of the states that receive the most federal dollars versus the amount they pay in federal taxes, almost all are conservative states.
- The highest rates of internet paid porn access are in conservative states.

I can cite numbers and studies for all of these on request.

Now in fairness, and to right any media bias I may be experiencing, I invite people to show me similar contradictions of the liberal states.

Let the flames begin!!

[Philistine]

Conservative states have the highest divorce rates.

Don't they generally also have the highest marriage rates? So that you'd expect higher divorce rates, all other things being equal?

- They have the highest teenage pregnancy rates.

I'm not sure that's necessarily the case. Here's one link.

One interesting statistic from it, breaking it down by race/ethnicity:
"Among black teenagers aged 15–19, pregnancy rates were highest in New Jersey (209 per 1,000) and in Wisconsin, Delaware, Pennsylvania and Oregon (161–177 per 1,000). They were lowest in Utah, New Mexico, West Virginia, Rhode Island and Colorado (71–114 per 1,000)."

- The highest rates of internet paid porn access are in conservative states.

Now this one I'd like to see a stat for.

Though, I guess it makes sense--conservatives being willing to utilize the free market for quality pornography while liberals are freeloading off of the free stuff.

--Philistine

[telkanuru]

I'm still stuck on how people can be against abortion but for the death penalty.

[keith]

Don't they generally also have the highest marriage rates? So that you'd expect higher divorce rates, all other things being equal?

Well having looked up the numbers the ratios of rates per thousand seem similar. Unfortunately the PDFs are formatted differently so you can't easily dump it for a detailed detailed statistical analysis. Shame.

[Inquartata]

Telk, although I myself am "for" both, the reason usually cited is that the death penalty is punishment meted out for a deliberate harmful act by a reasoning, responsible adult, whereas abortion is seen as a punishment meted out to an innocent and helpless "baby" for doing nothing whatsoever harmful...

Hauptman, most of your statistics boil down to "correlation does not prove causation", as Philistine points out in his post.

[Hauptman]

Don't they generally also have the highest marriage rates? So that you'd expect higher divorce rates, all other things being equal?



I'm not sure that's necessarily the case. Here's one link.

One interesting statistic from it, breaking it down by race/ethnicity:
"Among black teenagers aged 15–19, pregnancy rates were highest in New Jersey (209 per 1,000) and in Wisconsin, Delaware, Pennsylvania and Oregon (161–177 per 1,000). They were lowest in Utah, New Mexico, West Virginia, Rhode Island and Colorado (71–114 per 1,000)."



Now this one I'd like to see a stat for.

Though, I guess it makes sense--conservatives being willing to utilize the free market for quality pornography while liberals are freeloading off of the free stuff.

--Philistine

True, a higher marriage might result in a higher divorce rate, but then what happened to the "sanctity of marriage"?

And from that study you quoted, the teenage pregnancy rate for whites, the republican base, were clearly highest in southern conservative states. Rates among minorities wouldn't reflect on republican values as they tend to vote overwhelmingly democrat. And come on... pregnancy rates among blacks in Utah, New Mexico, Colorado, and Rhode Island? Exactly how many blacks are there in those states in gross numbers and as a percentage of population?

I do agree with your porn argument though. Liberals seem much more comfortable than conservatives when using the "interwebs".

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...consumers.html

[Hauptman]

Telk, although I myself am "for" both, the reason usually cited is that the death penalty is punishment meted out for a deliberate harmful act by a reasoning, responsible adult, whereas abortion is seen as a punishment meted out to an innocent and helpless "baby" for doing nothing whatsoever harmful...

Hauptman, most of your statistics boil down to "correlation does not prove causation", as Philistine points out in his post.

That's fine, but it doesn't disprove it either. As I stated in my original post, you're more than welcome to throw out some half-assed studies attacking liberal values as well.

[Inquartata]

Heh, so as long as no one proves those aren't the reasons, they are?

Do we all know what that argument is called in Latin?

[tchwojko]

It is possible to be for the right to choose, and to be for minimizing abortions.

It is also possible to be for a death penalty in principle, but not in practice. (See Illinois' recent history.)

[I_luv_saber]

Also, how far back do these numbers go? Many would argue the Republicans on the whole are no longer conservative and have not been for quite some time (only retaining the social conservatism portion).

[Lemonaide]

I am admittedly somewhere between liberal and libertarian, and so I find myself at odds with conservatives more often than not.

Some of the most painful contradictions I find are focused in conservative, republican, "family values" states. Such as:

- Conservative states have the highest divorce rates.
- They have the highest teenage pregnancy rates.
- They have the highest poverty rates.
- Of the states that receive the most federal dollars versus the amount they pay in federal taxes, almost all are conservative states.
- The highest rates of internet paid porn access are in conservative states.

I can cite numbers and studies for all of these on request.

Now in fairness, and to right any media bias I may be experiencing, I invite people to show me similar contradictions of the liberal states.

Let the flames begin!!

That's because the states with the highest rates of conservatism don't always have all conservative residents living in them - so those people with the abovementioned problems could fall outside of the conservative description.

[Inquartata]

It is possible to be for the right to choose, and to be for minimizing abortions.

It is also possible to be for a death penalty in principle, but not in practice. (See Illinois' recent history.)

Very true.

I doubt very much that many pro-choice people are really, as Bill Maher is wont to say, "pro-death". Their opponents like to paint them as thirsty for the blood of babies, but that's a wild caricature.

[jeff]

Though, I guess it makes sense--conservatives being willing to utilize the free market for quality pornography while liberals are freeloading off of the free stuff. --Philistine

What, don't they have any teenagers there to show them how to get it for free?

[tchwojko]

Very true.

I doubt very much that many pro-choice people are really, as Bill Maher is wont to say, "pro-death". Their opponents like to paint them as thirsty for the blood of babies, but that's a wild caricature.

The media also is wont to showcase the extremes of both sides rather than the majority of the boring moderates.

[Hauptman]

Heh, so as long as no one proves those aren't the reasons, they are?

Do we all know what that argument is called in Latin?

Not exactly. Correlation is potential evidence of causation. The fact that it doesn't prove causation doesn't make it any less relevant.

[Hauptman]

And I'm still waiting for someone to throw out some similar correlations relating to liberal ideology.

They can't all be aimed at conservatives, can they?

[Inquartata]

Traditionally, that's the way the balance seems to have tipped, yes.

Correlation only becomes relevant when it is proed to be causal...

[Elendae]

I doubt very much that many pro-choice people are really, as Bill Maher is wont to say, "pro-death". Their opponents like to paint them as thirsty for the blood of babies, but that's a wild caricature.

I happen to be quite thirsty for the blood of babies. It's rather tasty.

On a more serious note, I'm going to have to side with those stating that correlation does not equal causation. There are too many other factors to be considered.

That having been said, I was raised in an evangelical household and married a southern baptist. (I fortunately found sanity several years later.) I've always found it odd that my ex was perfectly fine with staying home on all but maybe one Sunday every few months, but, when I told him I didn't want to go to church at all, it suddenly became a huge problem.

[Purple Fencer]

That having been said, I was raised in an evangelical household and married a southern baptist. (I fortunately found sanity several years later.) I've always found it odd that my ex was perfectly fine with staying home on all but maybe one Sunday every few months, but, when I told him I didn't want to go to church at all, it suddenly became a huge problem.

Like you have to go to a church building to talk to God....

[Inquartata]

Yes, but organized religion doesn't believe that God speaks your language. You ( and He ) need a translator, apparently. ;