Political Contradictions

[tchwojko]

Yes, but organized religion doesn't believe that God speaks your language. You ( and He ) need a translator, apparently. ;

Don't forget the collection plate.

[Hauptman]

Traditionally, that's the way the balance seems to have tipped, yes.

Correlation only becomes relevant when it is proed to be causal...

That is completely unrealistic. Rarely is anything "proved" outside of the hard sciences and mathematics, sometimes not even there.

Research methodology looks for correlational data that supports a logical hypothesis that can be supported to a reasonable level of certainty. Reasonable is usually defined as a 95% confidence interval which means they're probably wrong 1 in 20 times.

So show me the flawed logic of the hypothesis, or the flaws in the research methodology, or contradictory evidence, but please don't just sit there and say, "it's just a correlation so it's doesn't prove anything". :P

[Inquartata]

Sorry, but that's exactly what I'm going to do. If you make the assertion, it's up to you to demonstrate that it's not ( among other things ) just correlation. It's not up to me to demonstrate that it IS just correlation. That's to be assumed until it's proven.

I agree that the standard of proof is not 100%, and neither is it necessarily the same for all hypotheses. But thus far zero evidence has been adduced to show causation...

[Hauptman]

Sorry, but that's exactly what I'm going to do. If you make the assertion, it's up to you to demonstrate that it's not ( among other things ) just correlation. It's not up to me to demonstrate that it IS just correlation. That's to be assumed until it's proven.

I agree that the standard of proof is not 100%, and neither is it necessarily the same for all hypotheses. But thus far zero evidence has been adduced to show causation...

I realize that is what you are doing, and I am asserting that it is an unreasonable standard. By that standard you would throw out the vast majority of scientific research because it cannot reach your defined level of "proof".

A logical hypothesis, along with supporting evidence, is the accepted standard. Correlation is supporting evidence if it matches with the logic of the hypothesis.

[Inquartata]

I'll settle for one single piece of empirical evidence suggesting a causal relationship between, say, conservatism and divorce...

Just one.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

That is completely unrealistic. Rarely is anything "proved" outside of the hard sciences and mathematics, sometimes not even there.

Research methodology looks for correlational data that supports a logical hypothesis that can be supported to a reasonable level of certainty. Reasonable is usually defined as a 95% confidence interval which means they're probably wrong 1 in 20 times.

So show me the flawed logic of the hypothesis, or the flaws in the research methodology, or contradictory evidence, but please don't just sit there and say, "it's just a correlation so it's doesn't prove anything". :P

Sorry, but that's exactly what I'm going to do. If you make the assertion, it's up to you to demonstrate that it's not ( among other things ) just correlation. It's not up to me to demonstrate that it IS just correlation. That's to be assumed until it's proven.

I agree that the standard of proof is not 100%, and neither is it necessarily the same for all hypotheses. But thus far zero evidence has been adduced to show causation...

I find it funny to note that Inq claims to be operating according to the most stringent of proof standards. In this case, the standards used for mathematics, a subject which Inq repeatedly has claimed to know little of, and have a decided distaste for.

In any case, if we look at the threadstart again (see below) we see that it asks for examples of contradictions - not any proofs of any kind.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

I am admittedly somewhere between liberal and libertarian, and so I find myself at odds with conservatives more often than not.

Some of the most painful contradictions I find are focused in conservative, republican, "family values" states. Such as:

- Conservative states have the highest divorce rates.
- They have the highest teenage pregnancy rates.
- They have the highest poverty rates.
- Of the states that receive the most federal dollars versus the amount they pay in federal taxes, almost all are conservative states.
- The highest rates of internet paid porn access are in conservative states.

I can cite numbers and studies for all of these on request.

Now in fairness, and to right any media bias I may be experiencing, I invite people to show me similar contradictions of the liberal states.

Let the flames begin!!

[Inquartata]

Who mentioned mathematics? Not I. Avaunt! Return to the fiery realm of Calculus, o demon of the number, thou wert not summoned!

[tchwojko]

Who mentioned mathematics? Not I. Avaunt! Return to the fiery realm of Calculus, o demon of the number, thou wert not summoned!

You said "proof". That's the sound mathemagicians make when we appear.

We're more impish. Now economists, they're demonic, combining statistics and money...damn lies...

And most of my grad school textbooks don't have numbers larger than 3. Anything larger is done by induction, a reader (as an exercise), or engineers who actually care what the result is rather than the fact that a solution exists.

[Purple Fencer]

Yes, but organized religion doesn't believe that God speaks your language. You ( and He ) need a translator, apparently. ;

Not me, thanks....the last time I spoke to God was a looong time ago.

Here's another political contradition....Michael Steele as the leader of the Republican party.....that's turning out to be Rush Limbaugh...because every time Rush gets called on the carpet by RNC leaders, and then they apologize to him and back off, they cede leadership to that blowhard...

[Beeblebrox]

- Conservative states have the highest divorce rates.

Because liberals still aren't allowed to get married!

- They have the highest teenage pregnancy rates.

Because it is hard to get pregnant with the same sex and those that do have an abortion.

- They have the highest poverty rates.

Because they are the only ones to pay the trillions in taxes to support the liberal agenda.

- Of the states that receive the most federal dollars versus the amount they pay in federal taxes, almost all are conservative states.

Because the liberal controlled congress is trying to buy votes and convert all states.

- The highest rates of internet paid porn access are in conservative states.

When was the last time a liberal paid for anything.

Let the flames begin!!

You asked for it.

[fatfencer]

I'll settle for one single piece of empirical evidence suggesting a causal relationship between, say, conservatism and divorce...

Just one.

Hillary Clinton is one buck toothed uggggly beeotch and she and Bill stayed married.

A conservative would have divorced her and married someone better looking.

FF

[MyrddinsPrecint]

First off--- Correlation may not prove causation, but it sure does tip you off that there might be something worth looking at going on. Often it doesn't work out, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't poke at it and see!

And come on... pregnancy rates among blacks in Utah, New Mexico, Colorado, and Rhode Island? Exactly how many blacks are there in those states in gross numbers and as a percentage of population?

Rhode Island has a population of 3 beach bums, 5 corrupt politicians, 3 Brown Profs, and 1 inner city punk. Guess which one is black?

(hint: it's one of the Brown Profs.)

And most of my grad school textbooks don't have numbers larger than 3. Anything larger is done by induction, a reader (as an exercise), or engineers who actually care what the result is rather than the fact that a solution exists.

Page numbers.

Because it is hard to get pregnant with the same sex and those that do have an abortion.

If another woman knocked me up, I would probably not get an abortion, and that would be DAMN scientifically interesting, and I could get a book deal out of it. Sell the rights to a movie, perhaps.

[trickery dickery dock]

Yes, but organized religion doesn't believe that God speaks your language. You ( and He ) need a translator, apparently. ;

Wow, I almost thought that you had things right. Until I read this and your comment on how much you like baby-murder.

According to THE WORD OF GOD, we are supposed to congregate and worship The Lord. If you only choose to obey some of The Rules, you are no better than somebody who obeys none of them. Oh wait, that's right, you are a baby-killer. Do you really follow ANY of The Rules, or are you really one of those moronic hippies who likes to read his Bible by himself so that he can interpret it to mean the things he already thinks he believes in? I urge you, as a Christian, to redeem yourself and come to Church this Sunday. Things can change for you.

Telknuru- Oh please, save us your liberal "logic" (if thats what you can call it). There are two reasons true conservatives are for the death penalty:
1-Murderers are evil, and God has instructed us to destroy evil. Now, I know that you're going to try to give some excuse to murderers, but let me ask you this: If murder isn't evil, then what is?
2-God instructed us to obey all just laws. The death penalty is a just law because it punishes murderers who ought to die.

We are against abortion, because, according to The Bible, murder is wrong. Here's a question for you, smart guy: Why do liberals want to kill babies and save murderers?

</serving>

[I_luv_saber]

</troll>

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Do you really follow ANY of The Rules, or are you really one of those moronic hippies who likes to read his Bible by himself so that he can interpret it to mean the things he already thinks he believes in?

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

If you're loving me (your neighbor) as you love yourself, you seriously need to consider loving yourself more.

[telkanuru]

Let's start off this conversation by saying that I know I'm feeding the troll, and that I take the premise that logic has a liberal bias as very funny.

1-Murderers are evil, and God has instructed us to destroy evil. Now, I know that you're going to try to give some excuse to murderers, but let me ask you this: If murder isn't evil, then what is?
2-God instructed us to obey all just laws. The death penalty is a just law because it punishes murderers who ought to die.

Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the lord. (Romans 12:19)

And if you think that God has instructed you to obey all earthly laws, go read your source text.

We are against abortion, because, according to The Bible, murder is wrong. Here's a question for you, smart guy: Why do liberals want to kill babies and save murderers?

We save murderers primarily because we think that the state killing someone is vengeance, not justice, and that the state is not entitled to be vengeful. Or, put another way, the modern state is created so that justice replaced vengeance, so by taking acts of revenge, the state compromises itself.

Also we think that a lifetime in a pound-me-in-the-ass prison is much worse than a needle in the arm. Never mind that the death penalty is amazingly racist.

We also don't consider small groupings of cells to be the same thing as a fully formed human.

[Hauptman]

I urge you, as a Christian, to redeem yourself and come to Church this Sunday. Things can change for you.

</selfserving>

There are so many things to poke at, but I'm going to keep it simple.

Which church are you referring to? Because the things being taught, and the "rules" being followed, are very different if you're Catholic, Mormon, Lutheran, Eastern Orthodox, Baptist, etc.

If even Christians can't agree on this stuff, why would anyone else listen to you?

[keith]

We save murderers primarily because we think that the state killing someone is vengeance, not justice, and that the state is not entitled to be vengeful. Or, put another way, the modern state is created so that justice replaced vengeance, so by taking acts of revenge, the state compromises itself.

Or, we replaced the process of indulging in vengeance on the body of the convicted with a form more likely to allow kind hearted liberals to sleep well at night; the rational vengeance of the age of reason.

[telkanuru]

Or, if you don't play well with society, you don't get to play in society.

"Rational Vengeance" is oxymoronic.

[keith]

"Rational Vengeance" is oxymoronic.

Not at all. Some of the punishments meted out in the good old days where perfectly rational, all that has changed is what can be claimed under that rubric.