Why America supports the Jews/Israel

[fatfencer]

Ok folks,

few rules:

1) no slurs of anykind.

2) no slurs of anykind

3) no anti-Semitism of anykind

What Im looking for is a laundry list and even some healthy debate about why we support Israel.

I for one, despite being a Christian, have a hard time with it. Many Christians see it as helping God's chosen.

I recognize the Holocaust happened and the Jews have suffered much throughout history.

But I also recognize that Israeli Jews only want a solvency that is 100% beneficial to them and only them in re the Palestinians and their war against Muslims in general. Otherwise they are perfectly willing to continue to the bitter end. In a sense, this attitude is perpetuating the war ad infinitum, which means our AMERICAN tax dollars are paying for planes, bombs, etc.

But why does it have to mean that? Why is it OUR problem? Is it the Jewish Lobby in America? Is it the Right wing uberPentacostals who cant leave Israel alone because one day they want to convert them over to loving Jesus..

Why? What does it cost us and what does it gain us... I have a strange feeling that our protection of Israel when viewed under a CBA lens will be unjustifiable.


Im neither jew nor muslim. I have acquaintances who are both.

Discuss!!!

Fatfencer

[keith]

Discuss!!!

ok

Im neither jew nor muslim. I have acquaintances who are both.

Why does one always get suspicious of folks who add this qualifier?

I've never understood the urge - I think in future, rather than the declaration I'd like three letters of reference. For each group claimed.

[jeff]

I also recognize that Israeli Jews only want a solvency that is 100% beneficial to them and only them in re the Palestinians and their war against Muslims in general.

Off to a bad start there. See the Gaza thread and "when did you stop beating your wife?" as a bad opener for a discussion. To that, add "supporting Jews is not the same thing as supporting Israel" (and vice versa). Israel has a war on Muslims in general? Oh really? I thought it was quite the other way around (read the Hamas charter for a sample).



Hm, a democratic pluralistic society in Middle East, largely in the US camp in world politics, surrounded by hostile countries (many of whom are hostile to the US too, and not purely because of Israel), created after a Holocaust in which many (both Jew and Christian) were convinced that continued existence as a minority population would be suicidal and hence a national homeland was needed.

Maybe, just maybe, in addition to the undoubted efforts of lobbying by Zionists of both Jewish and evangelical Christian flavors, maybe the US continues to think that Israel has a right to exist? If not, the lobbyist efforts would not be successful.

Of course, the devil is in the details: exist in what borders, with what relations with its neighbors. But that's a more nuanced issue, aint it.

[wwalkerjr]

Did someone say this is a pretty complex issue?

Here is some information that my help the understanding, if not the discourse.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_199...us_support.php

[fatfencer]

Off to a bad start there. See the Gaza thread and "when did you stop beating your wife?" as a bad opener for a discussion. To that, add "supporting Jews is not the same thing as supporting Israel" (and vice versa). Israel has a war on Muslims in general? Oh really? I thought it was quite the other way around (read the Hamas charter for a sample).

Hmmm I dunno. I started this thread based on a discussion I've had going with several jews, most of whom are Reform. They all say basically the same thing. They don't want the war to end UNLESS they win. They don't want an out of the box thinking type of solvency. They want the complete capitulation of Islam.

Hm, a democratic pluralistic society in Middle East, largely in the US camp in world politics, surrounded by hostile countries (many of whom are hostile to the US too, and not purely because of Israel), created after a Holocaust in which many (both Jew and Christian) were convinced that continued existence as a minority population would be suicidal and hence a national homeland was needed.

I question the need for an ally in a region where we really don't belong. We have nothing in common culturally. Also 'ally' is a tough word to use when we really don't need them at all militarily to accomplish ANY objective in the Middle East. We proven that over the last 16 years.

Also I think you hit the nail on the head with the religious thing. From a pure CBA theres NO reason to support them. Gypsys exist all over Europe. Why should the jews fare any better? Are the gypsys less of a people? No.

Also it seems a horrible lack of planning to put them smack dab in the middle of the people who hate them the MOST. Muslims. Again, why not madagascar or some other remote place where no one lives?

Maybe, just maybe, in addition to the undoubted efforts of lobbying by Zionists of both Jewish and evangelical Christian flavors, maybe the US continues to think that Israel has a right to exist? If not, the lobbyist efforts would not be successful.

Yes on religion, no on your conclusion in re lobbying. I think the lobby is as sucessful as it is because there are so many jews in Washington. Money talks and BS runs a marathon. Jews are much better at buying their votes than anyone save Big Oil. I dont underestimate their machine. In fact, Im in admiration of it.


FF

[fatfencer]

Did someone say this is a pretty complex issue?

Here is some information that my help the understanding, if not the discourse.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_199...us_support.php

This is a very pro Israeli website. It does certainly explain many things that they'd like the public to see from their perspective.

Not saying thats good or bad, just that they have an agenda.

My agenda is simple. Our economy bites. We need not be helping Israel when our own people are suffering. According to the website we help them to a tune of $3BILLION a year. Lot of money. We could be using that to fund schools, help disaster victims, etc.

We dont believe in helping our own, but we are an international welfare agency, giving money to a people historically known for having lots of it.

Hmmm.....

Fatfencer

[fatfencer]

ok



Why does one always get suspicious of folks who add this qualifier?

I've never understood the urge - I think in future, rather than the declaration I'd like three letters of reference. For each group claimed.

It's just so that people dont think Im needlessly trolling or worse, harboring some bigoted agenda.

FF

[jeff]

Hmmm I dunno. I started this thread based on a discussion I've had going with several jews, most of whom are Reform. They all say basically the same thing. They don't want the war to end UNLESS they win. They don't want an out of the box thinking type of solvency. They want the complete capitulation of Islam.

I doubt that very much. What do you interpret as "capitulation of Islam"? That Muslims stop being Muslim? They're supposed to convert or die? Ridiculous. There's no such idea in Judaism or Zionist thought - the opposite is true. Basically you're talking nonsense.

As far as "UNLESS they win" - tell me, are you aware of anybody who doesn't want their side to win, regardless of what the fight is? Official Israeli policy is the two-state solution - except for the right wing wackos who have been made more powerful, unfortunately, due to the last Gaza war.

The opposite is true for their opponents - who call for genocide and obliteration of Israel.

I question the need for an ally in a region where we really don't belong. We have nothing in common culturally. Also 'ally' is a tough word to use when we really don't need them at all militarily to accomplish ANY objective in the Middle East. We proven that over the last 16 years

Also I think you hit the nail on the head with the religious thing. From a pure CBA theres NO reason to support them. Gypsys exist all over Europe. Why should the jews fare any better? Are the gypsys less of a people? No.

This is one of those "the question is wrong" situations. Why did we support Britain against Germany in WW II and WW I? We could have cut a better, more attractive deal with Germany, which seemed to have all the cards in 1940 and was the most probable winner. Based on your "what do we get out of it" way of thinking, we should have thrown in with them.

Nothing in common culturally? Are you kidding? Israel is a pretty much western-style democracy that isn't culturally out of step with US or Europe.

I have no idea what you're talking about with Gypsies. I don't think you have any idea either.

Also it seems a horrible lack of planning to put them smack dab in the middle of the people who hate them the MOST. Muslims. Again, why not madagascar or some other remote place where no one lives?

Actually, the Brits offered the Zionists that they could have Uganda instead of Israel. That didn't go over well.

Yes on religion, no on your conclusion in re lobbying. I think the lobby is as sucessful as it is because there are so many jews in Washington. Money talks and BS runs a marathon. Jews are much better at buying their votes than anyone save Big Oil. I dont underestimate their machine. In fact, Im in admiration of it.FF

Your "admiration" is still basically a racist remark. Next you'll tell us about how they run the world through the Trilateral Commission?

Oh, is this supposed to be the new, serious FF who doesn't troll to irritate people? Sorry, I must have been confused.

[Inquartata]

Hmmm I dunno. I started this thread based on a discussion I've had going with several jews, most of whom are Reform. They all say basically the same thing. They don't want the war to end UNLESS they win. They don't want an out of the box thinking type of solvency. They want the complete capitulation of Islam.

Hey, I know TONS of Jews who say that I am right about everything!

Uh, no...no, I can't prove that. But I assert it anyway!

( See, this is why they don't generally allow hearsay evidence in courts of law. )

I question the need for an ally in a region where we really don't belong.

"He who has a thousand friends has not a friend to spare;
But he who has one enemy will meet him everywhere."

In an often hostile world, one needs all the allies one can get, wherever they may be found. Haven't you been listening to the scolding of the "world community" on this very issue for the last 8 years?

we really don't need them at all militarily to accomplish ANY objective in the Middle East. We proven that over the last 16 years.

Really?

So it was us who bombed the Osirak reactor into rubble, then?

Who knew?

Also it seems a horrible lack of planning to put them smack dab in the middle of the people who hate them the MOST. Muslims. Again, why not madagascar or some other remote place where no one lives?

Because "they" are not our children or our property, to be "put" where we wish whatever they themselves might choose?

[Mac A. Bee]

...lack of planning to put them smack dab in the middle of the people who hate them the MOST...

We were there first. Islam was created over a 1,000 years later.

[Insipiens]

We were there first. Islam was created over a 1,000 years later.

I don't think you can say "first" in an absolute sense. If at all.
Islam may have arrived after the Jews but the people who are now Muslim may have been something else before (maybe Canaanite ) and in the same place.
And if you give any historical credence to the Exodus story, the Jews were not there "first",

[keith]

We were there first. Islam was created over a 1,000 years later.

So when are you handing your apartment over to an american indian?

[Hauptman]

So when are you handing your apartment over to an american indian?

Ok, so the Jews were there first AND last. By the same argument the Palestinians should just deal with it. I agree it's a bad argument either way, but it's why the Jews want Israel in particular, and not some other arbitrary piece of land.

Besides, in fairness, the Arab powers have huge parcels of undeveloped land, but keep the Palestinian "refugees" isolated in camps. I put refugees in quotes because they've been kept isolated and unassimilated for over 60 years now. Doesn't seem like the Arab world really wants to take care of it's own. They have as many wars with each other as they do with outsiders.

And, Fatfencer, you started this discussion with an incredibly biased point of view and hardly attempted to disguise that fact. Don't be so surprised when you get called on it.

[telkanuru]

If you listen closely, you can all hear the internets laughing at you.

[jeff]

As long as we're piling on poor old fatfencer: hey, fatfencer - thousands of American soldiers died to keep South Korea from being overrun, and even today it's only our soldiers that keep the North from overrunning it and taking back the whole peninsula in less time than it takes Domino's to deliver a pizza. They don't strike me as being particularly grateful, considering how the moron college students there protest the USA, even though we're the people guaranteeing that right for them, because Dear Leader won't put up with that. Billions of dollars, thousands of our lives, and our soldiers still on the line. A much bigger "support" than for Israel. So, why does American support Korea? We sure don't get as much out of it as they do. (If that's too close to home, c'est la vie). Or why do we support and protect a lot of countries that get more out of the relationship than we do. (The answer has something to do with being a global power that has policies that aren't all based on getting the best deal for ourselves)

[fatfencer]

Korea: I'll deal with that jeff in an entirely different post. I have a convention to go to so Im unable to answer it now. Its a good argument on face, but bad in practice to use Korea here.

I do want it clear though... I have no cultural bias against jews.

I do have a large bias against helping them financially/militarily. we have our own suffereing here in the US. They are a very wealthy people. We give them billions a year. I have a problem with this. Doesnt make me a jew hater.... now whitey on the other hand... no just kidding.

and we have a border problem that will take every penny we have to solve it.

What right to we have to enter conflicts with negligible financial gain when we have such incredibly large problems at home.

Again, Korea is a totally different ballgame. No, Jeff its not so close to home that I can't deal with it. I said I was Asian, not spinally deficient.

See you in a few days.

FF

[Lemonaide]

Ok folks,

few rules:

1) no slurs of anykind.

2) no slurs of anykind

3) no anti-Semitism of anykind

What Im looking for is a laundry list and even some healthy debate about why we support Israel.

I for one, despite being a Christian, have a hard time with it. Many Christians see it as helping God's chosen.

I recognize the Holocaust happened and the Jews have suffered much throughout history.

But I also recognize that Israeli Jews only want a solvency that is 100% beneficial to them and only them in re the Palestinians and their war against Muslims in general. Otherwise they are perfectly willing to continue to the bitter end. In a sense, this attitude is perpetuating the war ad infinitum, which means our AMERICAN tax dollars are paying for planes, bombs, etc.

But why does it have to mean that? Why is it OUR problem? Is it the Jewish Lobby in America? Is it the Right wing uberPentacostals who cant leave Israel alone because one day they want to convert them over to loving Jesus..

Why? What does it cost us and what does it gain us... I have a strange feeling that our protection of Israel when viewed under a CBA lens will be unjustifiable.


Im neither jew nor muslim. I have acquaintances who are both.

Discuss!!!

Fatfencer

In a woid:
Tradition!
Ya da dee dee da
Ya da dee dee da
If I were a weathly man!!!!!!!

and......
Sunrise, Sunset
Sunrise, Sunset

Here's what I think so far: For a long time the financial backbone was put together with the Wasps and the Jews - everyone held up. We did fine. We learned what is kosher, what is Manichevits, all of us kids went to school with all of the Jewish kids and we all learned a little bit about the culture, food, days off etc. We had a gentlemans agreement that on Christmas the Jewish people would fill in for us; and on Passover we would fill in for them. We knew each other very well and got along - But now Israel is a stronger nation now than before, it's roots were refugees from Eastern and Western Europe who were half starved. They have similar history to many of our citizens, who came from starvation in Ireland and England. Whatever the psychological reasons are for flexing their new muscles, is it right? I still like Israel, and I want to like the other groups as well. When I think of Italy, I think of France, I think that I have similar feelings about both nations; so I would like to PLEASE, feel the same way about Israel and other neighboring nations.

[Jeff....your post was very good. As much as I adore Fat, even though he's not really fat. But I don't think I hear any discrimination in the posts I think he genuinely wants to discuss these countries and there is no other way to do that than to be able to talk about our 'dear neighbors'. The dear leader thing was too much though? It was like watching an Elvis impersonation.]

[jeff]

FF - We give billions to lots of countries, and in many cases put our own lives on the line to support them. We're not Ferengi ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferengi if that escapes you) and we don't do things just on whether we can turn a profit from the deal. Korea is definitely not the Middle East, but if your criteria is whether we turn a buck from it or make a specific gain for the US, it sure as heck is the same "game". You don't like that we support Israel, which is your right, but you immediately say "it's different" when we put even more on the line to support other countries, including billions to Pakistan and Egypt, and trillions over the years to protect Japan, ROK, Taiwan, and all of Europe. If you want to say we should stop all foreign aid everywhere, then go for it - but picking out one place and people is suspect (uh huh, it's those rich manipulative Jews, ff says, but he means it in a GOOD way, not from bias. Sure. Helpful Hint for you: "Jew" and "Muslim" are capitalized just like "Christian", the way you do it can be taken as an insult )

But I'm sure you know that and you're just trolling for fun. Ho-hum, FF, you're BORING! Think of something new - break out of your rut!

[Inquartata]

I do have a large bias against helping them financially/militarily. we have our own suffereing here in the US. They are a very wealthy people. We give them billions a year. I have a problem with this.

and we have a border problem that will take every penny we have to solve it.

What right to we have to enter conflicts with negligible financial gain when we have such incredibly large problems at home.

Maybe we have to keep "giving them billions" because we are constantly undoing what they accomplish?

Maybe since we "need every penny" at home we shouldn't be sending $900 million to the Palestinians, to rebuild what the Israelis just finished destroying in Gaza?

Maybe we REALLY shouldn't be sending it to Gaza, where it will have to go through the hands of Hamas, who will use it to buy arms and train "fighters" and to support their jihad generally instead of actually building infrastructure or productive capacity?

Why are we doing this, when we have such problems of our own? What business is it of ours, what's the profit in it?

Meanwhile, I look forward to hearing how Korea is "different", and exactly which interests we have in the Korean peninsula which we do not have in the Middle East. Because I don't see any significant ones, myself.

[Hauptman]

Korea: I'll deal with that jeff in an entirely different post. I have a convention to go to so Im unable to answer it now. Its a good argument on face, but bad in practice to use Korea here.

I do want it clear though... I have no cultural bias against jews.

I do have a large bias against helping them financially/militarily. we have our own suffereing here in the US. They are a very wealthy people. We give them billions a year. I have a problem with this. Doesnt make me a jew hater.... now whitey on the other hand... no just kidding.

and we have a border problem that will take every penny we have to solve it.

What right to we have to enter conflicts with negligible financial gain when we have such incredibly large problems at home.

Again, Korea is a totally different ballgame. No, Jeff its not so close to home that I can't deal with it. I said I was Asian, not spinally deficient.

See you in a few days.

FF

Just for the record, I am Jewish.

And I agree with one point you make; while I feel we properly support them politically, and should support them in terms of sharing military technology, I don't think we need to be sending them billions of dollars.

Now it could be a hold-over from different times. They may have truly needed the financial support when it started over 40 years ago; I just don't know. But I don't think they need it, or deserve it now.