Why America supports the Jews/Israel

[erooMynohtnA]

Ahem, rape of Nanking? Example of genocide? Shouldn't the numbers be part of the metric? If one hundred type a people were shot in the head, and one thousand type b people were shot in the head, isn't it worse for type b people? Unless you maintain that type a lives are worth mroe than type b lives, in which case the argument becomes much more difficult.

I think the value of a life is infinite, and in terms of a murder, it has to be treated as such. However, some infinities are denser than others.

[SabreReedfrost]

I think the value of a life is infinite, and in terms of a murder, it has to be treated as such. However, some infinities are denser than others.

We need an emoticon with a raised eyebrow.

[Inspector Gadget]

maybe because they support us in many ways? But beyond who supports who politically, there is just something basically wrong with so many areas in the world. I just want to know what is going on with people mentally. Looking at Pakistan and Afganistan is just a chore. It's become such a junk shop of dust and debris. Those men have to get a hold of themselves. There must be about a million of them locked in a closet - they just won't step up to the plate - we've never seen so much in the way of mysogisim. When we look at the news they look so miserable and dusty - they all look like they just want to rip off their turbans, but it's like too late or something.

[fatfencer]

maybe because they support us in many ways? But beyond who supports who politically, there is just something basically wrong with so many areas in the world.

I underlined that for emphasis. This statement, for me, is the crux of the problem. The jews have done such a good job promoting themselves that people dont really see that Israel does bubkis for us. Zero. Nada. Zippy.

Just what do they do for us that deserves 2-4 Billion a year?

We cant fix all that is wrong wit the world with our tax money. Maybe you missed it earlier in the thread but the jews here in the US do very little for their fellow US citizens.

Furthermore, in this econ downturn even THEY are cutting their own giving to Israel.

Why should the taxpayer fork over funds when he likely isnt a jew/Israeli american?

Furthermore, taxes should be spent secularly. We dont even pray in schools but the Christian Right somehow manages to spend our dollars in helping the Jews because they are 'the chosen'.

I find this disturbing.

I understand that 'not helping the jews' can ruffle some feathers. But I dont understand why. Not helping them implies neutrality, not hatred.

What's also disturbing is that the jewish american contingent here on F-net can't see that whats best for America isn't necessarily whats best for israel and yet they wish our continued help.

Their citizenship requires loyalty to this country, total mutual exclusivity. Im not sensing that. If the jews wish to give of their own money to israel rather than support the American community they live in then fine. It's their money.

But not one dime of taxpayer dollars should go to support a religious cause, certainly not one extant of the US. We have our own problems.

FF

[Hauptman]

I underlined that for emphasis. This statement, for me, is the crux of the problem. The jews have done such a good job promoting themselves that people dont really see that Israel does bubkis for us. Zero. Nada. Zippy.

Just what do they do for us that deserves 2-4 Billion a year?

We cant fix all that is wrong wit the world with our tax money. Maybe you missed it earlier in the thread but the jews here in the US do very little for their fellow US citizens.

Furthermore, in this econ downturn even THEY are cutting their own giving to Israel.

Why should the taxpayer fork over funds when he likely isnt a jew/Israeli american?

Furthermore, taxes should be spent secularly. We dont even pray in schools but the Christian Right somehow manages to spend our dollars in helping the Jews because they are 'the chosen'.

I find this disturbing.

I understand that 'not helping the jews' can ruffle some feathers. But I dont understand why. Not helping them implies neutrality, not hatred.

What's also disturbing is that the jewish american contingent here on F-net can't see that whats best for America isn't necessarily whats best for israel and yet they wish our continued help.

Their citizenship requires loyalty to this country, total mutual exclusivity. Im not sensing that. If the jews wish to give of their own money to israel rather than support the American community they live in then fine. It's their money.

But not one dime of taxpayer dollars should go to support a religious cause, certainly not one extant of the US. We have our own problems.

FF

Believe it or not, I don't think we need to be sending billions of dollars to Israel, but not for any of the reasons you lay out.

People here disagree with you for a variety of reasons.

Few believe you've proven your point that the Jewish community in America cares only for themselves.

There is nothing exclusively religious about America's support of Israel; there are plenty of other reasons. We support Israel because it has been the only western-style democracy in the Middle-East since it's inception. It has also traditionally been an underdog standing against lousy odds and numbers.

Few believe that Israel has been a poor ally and given nothing in return. They have done plenty of dirty work for us in the region, and in terms of us supporting countries over the years we have certainly done worse; the Phillipines under Marcos, Iran under the Shah, Iraq under Hussein, etc.

Your attributing biased motives to those who disagree with you, and questioning our loyalty to America, is wrong and insulting, but not unexpected given your own biased point of view. No need to respond to this point; we all know where we stand.

I believe that Israel definitely deserves our support, but at this time money isn't the answer; they don't need it and we don't have it to spare.

[fatfencer]

Hauptman, Ive given this thread countless bits of evidence from pro Israeli sites that say exactly what I say it said...

Instead of just asserting they are a worthy ally that do much to earn that 3 billion subsidy why not PROVE it? I dont think youll be able to. I looked diligently and didnt find anything that even remotely served.

Moreover, you've just conceded the main of my view... that we have our own problems and need not be giving them money.

One big bone of contention for you and ILS was that Jews do give to the community around them. Again.. I looked PRIOR to asserting my view and found nothing but Jews being insular in both culture and finance. I chose the Schotland article because it was particularly misleading and schmaltzy. None of his data supported the tag phrases of joyful Jewish giving that he asserted was happening.

SO by all means, go look for some evidence. You'll find that it really doesnt exist and that I have a VERY clear idea of how Jews operate. I find that Chomsky wasnt wrong... about a great many things. I owe him and Mencken a great debt.

What I can't for the life of me understand is how Bernie Madoff isn't dead yet. Surely the Jews can afford someone... or did Bernie lose ALL of their money?

Poor Elie Wiesel....

Fatfencer

PS: You really should, if you haven't yet, read Outliers by Gladwell. Equally NON anti-Semitic he asserts the fact that Jews are insular and is thus, at least partly, the basis of this thread.

PPS: Oh and the loyalty thing:

questioning our loyalty to America

That comes from money being a very scarce resource and that for a long time those resources hadn't been reaching the poor, uneducated, and needy of THIS country. The one you and I both live in. When the black inner city kid from Queens gets Jewish money to afford better clothes and better schooling instead of Eretz Yisrael, then I'll gladly assert your claim that you are as American as I am. In fact, I'll throw a welcoming party. "Welcome Home, Brother Hauptman" I'm as Korean as you'll ever be a Jew but not one dime has left my hand to help the Koreans in their fight against the North. And if China were not a Nuclear power and a larger economic power than we are in many ways I'd fully support the full retreat of our forces from Korea.

[Hauptman]

Hauptman, Ive given this thread countless bits of evidence from pro Israeli sites that say exactly what I say it said...

Instead of just asserting they are a worthy ally that do much to earn that 3 billion subsidy why not PROVE it? I dont think youll be able to. I looked diligently and didnt find anything that even remotely served.

Moreover, you've just conceded the main of my view... that we have our own problems and need not be giving them money.

One big bone of contention for you and ILS was that Jews do give to the community around them. Again.. I looked PRIOR to asserting my view and found nothing but Jews being insular in both culture and finance. I chose the Schotland article because it was particularly misleading and schmaltzy. None of his data supported the tag phrases of joyful Jewish giving that he asserted was happening.

SO by all means, go look for some evidence. You'll find that it really doesnt exist and that I have a VERY clear idea of how Jews operate. I find that Chomsky wasnt wrong... about a great many things. I owe him and Mencken a great debt.

What I can't for the life of me understand is how Bernie Madoff isn't dead yet. Surely the Jews can afford someone... or did Bernie lose ALL of their money?

Poor Elie Wiesel....

Fatfencer

PS: You really should, if you haven't yet, read Outliers by Gladwell. Equally NON anti-Semitic he asserts the fact that Jews are insular and is thus, at least partly, the basis of this thread.

PPS: Oh and the loyalty thing: That comes from money being a very scarce resource and that for a long time those resources hadn't been reaching the poor, uneducated, and needy of THIS country. The one you and I both live in. When the black inner city kid from Queens gets Jewish money to afford better clothes and better schooling instead of Eretz Yisrael, then I'll gladly assert your claim that you are as American as I am. In fact, I'll throw a welcoming party. "Welcome Home, Brother Hauptman" I'm as Korean as you'll ever be a Jew but not one dime has left my hand to help the Koreans in their fight against the North. And if China were not a Nuclear power and a larger economic power than we are in many ways I'd fully support the full retreat of our forces from Korea.

The difference here is that instead of quoting my "jewish friends", and some particularly out of the mainstream authors (who by the way offer much opinion and little current data), I have lived in the mainstream Jewish community on both coasts.

You make it sound like the Jewish community is unusual in it's behavior, but it is not very different from most minority groups in supporting causes directly affecting their community. Blacks don't mostly contribute to Black organizations? Latinos? So you don't give to Koreans; congratulations, but are you going to tell me that Korean Americans aren't significantly more likely to give to Korean charities? Even the Christian majority mostly gives to Christian charities, and of their particular denomination. That's not surprising.

Those charities then use the money, and I'll say that Christian organizations are more likely to use that money outside their own community, but that is because they are evangelical! They are constantly trying to convert people! Those groups that have no interest in recruiting, spend the money in their own communities. Again this is not surprising or unusual.

There is little hard data to support either of our viewpoints. It is mostly opinion and speculation. I suspect that most of what the Israeli's have done for our gov't is hidden in classified files. And in case you didn't notice, I have said that I don't support the foreign aid at this time; I have always maintained that position throughout this discussion.

My question is why did you start this "discussion"? If I came to this discussion with a particular viewpoint it was to counter what I saw as your incorrect view, but you started this discussion, and had already made up your mind; what was the point?

[Wingate85]

I gues it would be for the same reason Hitler wrote Mein Kampf.

[fatfencer]

[QUOTE=Hauptman;787037]

The difference here is that instead of quoting my "jewish friends", and some particularly out of the mainstream authors (who by the way offer much opinion and little current data), I have lived in the mainstream Jewish community on both coasts.

I dont like the way you spin my quotes as somehow out of the way. Marvin Schotland is a regular contributor to the Jewish Daily Forward, a very progressive, pro Israel, pro Jew site. Most of my quotes cam from either him or others in the same or similar papers. There were two dissident voices. A former Colonel in the IDF, now living in Britain, who admittedly thinks the Israelis are wrong in their pursuit of an Israel with no Arabs in it. There was one other but I forget his name.

Schotland spins things much the same way you do. He says something 'says' something.... but the data he uses doesn't support his thesis.

Moreover, not quoting and instead offering your 'experience' instead of concrete evidence is a huge fallacy. The dissident jew in Britain has his experience too. we all have experiences and anecdotal evidence. No subsitute for some research.

You make it sound like the Jewish community is unusual in it's behavior, but it is not very different from most minority groups in supporting causes directly affecting their community.

I think its very different:

1) for the other groups below there is no real stereotype for them not being 'givers'

2) the other groups are neither as successful nor as insular, nor as total in terms of the domination of a particular field. Take attorneys on the NE coast, for example.

Blacks don't mostly contribute to Black organizations? Latinos? So you don't give to Koreans; congratulations, but are you going to tell me that Korean Americans aren't significantly more likely to give to Korean charities? Even the Christian majority mostly gives to Christian charities, and of their particular denomination. That's not surprising.

Theres two parts to this. Everyone gives to their own.. but even a publican loves their own family. All of those groups do some general charity work for the greater community at large. Not so the Jews. Actually I had difficulty finding any examples at all.

The second part of this is that none of those orgs you mentioned give their money outside the US. The Jews? **** tons. All leaving our shores for Eretz Yisrael. I find that not only unpatriotic and false but, frankly, I find it horribly loathesome and disgusting in light of Katrina, and other natural disasters. Moreover Jewish money could do wonders in poorer communities that need advances in public education, better instruments for poor kids, etc. Surely the Jews could be out there sandbagging in Fargo and helping with the relief effort there.

Those charities then use the money, and I'll say that Christian organizations are more likely to use that money outside their own community, but that is because they are evangelical!

Ahh at last. Some honesty. You finally admit that the Jews are less giving than at least the Christians. Youll find that nearly every charitable organization in the US has SOME Christian emphasis. However, there arre many secular institutions who are wonderfully giving.

You say it as if its bad to evangelize. but maybe the jews would have better luck and be less despised by those who hate them(not me) if they were historically more giving? Again the stereotype comes into play. Shylock wasn't an evangelical Christian.....

They are constantly trying to convert people! Those groups that have no interest in recruiting, spend the money in their own communities. Again this is not surprising or unusual.

This is actually not true. Catholics spend lots of money in the hospital sector, Lutherans too. Its unfortunate that the uber right evangelicals spend money in the education industry and churn out guys like Trickery...(at least we can agree on that) but I spose getting those guys to read anything is better than nothing? Many run schools, I'd like to see them all do more donations for roads in their areas at least. but many have adopted schools to outfit them for musical instruments.

Jews in the community at large... nada. Even if they had as benign an ulterior motive as conversion...it'd be better to give than to not.

There is little hard data to support either of our viewpoints. It is mostly opinion and speculation. I suspect that most of what the Israeli's have done for our gov't is hidden in classified files. And in case you didn't notice, I have said that I don't support the foreign aid at this time; I have always maintained that position throughout this discussion.

Duly noted on the underlined part. It's the "why" we haven't until today, agreed upon. Glad you are finally on board.

When the Israelis do our dirty work in China, Japan, North Korea, South America, I'll ***** less, I promise. However, they are so spread thin in their fight against their Arab neighbors that that is never going to be likely.

Meanwhile, Marine Force Recon, Seals, Airborne, do enough illegal work around the world. I'm not saying Israel doesnt help at all... im saying they dont help enough to truly call them an ALLY.

My question is why did you start this "discussion"? If I came to this discussion with a particular viewpoint it was to counter what I saw as your incorrect view, but you started this discussion, and had already made up your mind; what was the point?[

Glad you asked. My point was simple: to illuminate what you have come to agree with.

1) That stereotypes of Jews in re giving aren't that far off. Granted the caricature takes it farther and into the realm of the insulting.. but that doesnt make it less true.

2) That prima facie Israel doesn't do any where near as much for us as we do them... which makes them not an ally, but really a welfare recipient who takes advantage. I've addressed the off the books stuff above.

3) If I've shown, and I have, that the Jews give nothing or very little to the American community at large and its common knowledge that billions leave our shores for Eretz Yisrael; essentially the Jews have put their money where their mouth is. They've confessed their love, with their dollar, for another country. Not the one that allows them to thrive and grow and be safe to worship as they wish, but the one that is so wartorn, strife-ridden, etc. that even THEY, YOU, don't want to move to it despite being able to.

4) To do some work to show that the Jewish Lobby, JINSA/AIPAC really do little other than to increase Jewish Influence over our Govt for the purposes of Israel, not the US solely. The Jews arent taking a leadership role in promoting American issues at home and abroad, they use said leadership to promote the needs and welfare of another country. I showed that briefly with quotes from Gen. Colin Powell and others.

I hold out hope that one day the Jews will be a vibrant part of the American fabric of life, that they will do their share to promote American ideals of community, sharing, faithfulness to one's country, and general fidelity to what is best for America, period and without qualification.

I hold out hope. But I'm not holding my breath.

Fatfencer

[fatfencer]

I guess it would be for the same reason Hitler wrote Mein Kampf.

You really couldn't be more wrong. Racism that leads to Genocide, or even one death is something I find horridly atrocious. Faux-racism that finds its way into Humor I find incredibly healing.

Lewis Black is a wonderful example of a racist prick who has done much to heal the divides between people via stereotyping their culture and making those of us with sense of humor, laugh our asses off.

I love Lewis Black. And no, Im not saying that to appease the Jews on this forum. It's not like saying: "I have a _______ friend too." If y'all know anything about me its that I am not even remotely so disingenuous.

Fatfencer

[Inquartata]

You haven't laughed quite enough of your ass off...yet.

[fatfencer]

You haven't laughed quite enough of your ass off...yet.

I too question the aerobic rate of laughter... truly its a disappointing workout.

FF

[Hauptman]

[QUOTE=fatfencer;787128]

I dont like the way you spin my quotes as somehow out of the way. Marvin Schotland is a regular contributor to the Jewish Daily Forward, a very progressive, pro Israel, pro Jew site. Most of my quotes cam from either him or others in the same or similar papers. There were two dissident voices. A former Colonel in the IDF, now living in Britain, who admittedly thinks the Israelis are wrong in their pursuit of an Israel with no Arabs in it. There was one other but I forget his name.

Schotland spins things much the same way you do. He says something 'says' something.... but the data he uses doesn't support his thesis.

Moreover, not quoting and instead offering your 'experience' instead of concrete evidence is a huge fallacy. The dissident jew in Britain has his experience too. we all have experiences and anecdotal evidence. No subsitute for some research.




I think its very different:

1) for the other groups below there is no real stereotype for them not being 'givers'

2) the other groups are neither as successful nor as insular, nor as total in terms of the domination of a particular field. Take attorneys on the NE coast, for example.




Theres two parts to this. Everyone gives to their own.. but even a publican loves their own family. All of those groups do some general charity work for the greater community at large. Not so the Jews. Actually I had difficulty finding any examples at all.

The second part of this is that none of those orgs you mentioned give their money outside the US. The Jews? **** tons. All leaving our shores for Eretz Yisrael. I find that not only unpatriotic and false but, frankly, I find it horribly loathesome and disgusting in light of Katrina, and other natural disasters. Moreover Jewish money could do wonders in poorer communities that need advances in public education, better instruments for poor kids, etc. Surely the Jews could be out there sandbagging in Fargo and helping with the relief effort there.




Ahh at last. Some honesty. You finally admit that the Jews are less giving than at least the Christians. Youll find that nearly every charitable organization in the US has SOME Christian emphasis. However, there arre many secular institutions who are wonderfully giving.

You say it as if its bad to evangelize. but maybe the jews would have better luck and be less despised by those who hate them(not me) if they were historically more giving? Again the stereotype comes into play. Shylock wasn't an evangelical Christian.....




This is actually not true. Catholics spend lots of money in the hospital sector, Lutherans too. Its unfortunate that the uber right evangelicals spend money in the education industry and churn out guys like Trickery...(at least we can agree on that) but I spose getting those guys to read anything is better than nothing? Many run schools, I'd like to see them all do more donations for roads in their areas at least. but many have adopted schools to outfit them for musical instruments.

Jews in the community at large... nada. Even if they had as benign an ulterior motive as conversion...it'd be better to give than to not.




Duly noted on the underlined part. It's the "why" we haven't until today, agreed upon. Glad you are finally on board.

When the Israelis do our dirty work in China, Japan, North Korea, South America, I'll ***** less, I promise. However, they are so spread thin in their fight against their Arab neighbors that that is never going to be likely.

Meanwhile, Marine Force Recon, Seals, Airborne, do enough illegal work around the world. I'm not saying Israel doesnt help at all... im saying they dont help enough to truly call them an ALLY.



Glad you asked. My point was simple: to illuminate what you have come to agree with.

1) That stereotypes of Jews in re giving aren't that far off. Granted the caricature takes it farther and into the realm of the insulting.. but that doesnt make it less true.

2) That prima facie Israel doesn't do any where near as much for us as we do them... which makes them not an ally, but really a welfare recipient who takes advantage. I've addressed the off the books stuff above.

3) If I've shown, and I have, that the Jews give nothing or very little to the American community at large and its common knowledge that billions leave our shores for Eretz Yisrael; essentially the Jews have put their money where their mouth is. They've confessed their love, with their dollar, for another country. Not the one that allows them to thrive and grow and be safe to worship as they wish, but the one that is so wartorn, strife-ridden, etc. that even THEY, YOU, don't want to move to it despite being able to.

4) To do some work to show that the Jewish Lobby, JINSA/AIPAC really do little other than to increase Jewish Influence over our Govt for the purposes of Israel, not the US solely. The Jews arent taking a leadership role in promoting American issues at home and abroad, they use said leadership to promote the needs and welfare of another country. I showed that briefly with quotes from Gen. Colin Powell and others.

I hold out hope that one day the Jews will be a vibrant part of the American fabric of life, that they will do their share to promote American ideals of community, sharing, faithfulness to one's country, and general fidelity to what is best for America, period and without qualification.

I hold out hope. But I'm not holding my breath.

Fatfencer

Wow, those were some very large opinions, but few facts. And some very wild distortions as well.

Let me put it this way, I've spent many years with many Korean friends. I've read Korean books, watched Korean movies... hell, my wife is Korean!! But I'm not going to sit here and opine that I know the Korean community better than a Korean raised in that community.

But that is exactly what you are doing here. Your views of the Jewish community are just wrong. I read your source articles and they don't come close to supporting what you claim they do. And your representations of other communities are based on stereotypes in some cases but ignore stereotypes as well. Asians aren't stereotyped to be as "cheap" as Jews? You haven't heard the things I've heard, and from Asians as well.

And what about all the money Christian organizations send outside the country? You virtually claim that doesn't exist yet all Jewish charity flows to Israel? Again these are gross distortions.

So you can claim that us Jews are biased and disregarding your "facts" and amazing arguments, or you can consider the fact that you came in here with a biased viewpoint with the simple purpose to stir up ****, and that the Jewish commenters here might actually know their community better than you. (This is rhetorical, btw, in case you feel the need to respond.)

[Hauptman]

[QUOTE=fatfencer;787128]

I dont like the way you spin my quotes as somehow out of the way. Marvin Schotland is a regular contributor to the Jewish Daily Forward, a very progressive, pro Israel, pro Jew site. Most of my quotes cam from either him or others in the same or similar papers. There were two dissident voices. A former Colonel in the IDF, now living in Britain, who admittedly thinks the Israelis are wrong in their pursuit of an Israel with no Arabs in it. There was one other but I forget his name.

Schotland spins things much the same way you do. He says something 'says' something.... but the data he uses doesn't support his thesis.

Moreover, not quoting and instead offering your 'experience' instead of concrete evidence is a huge fallacy. The dissident jew in Britain has his experience too. we all have experiences and anecdotal evidence. No subsitute for some research.




I think its very different:

1) for the other groups below there is no real stereotype for them not being 'givers'

2) the other groups are neither as successful nor as insular, nor as total in terms of the domination of a particular field. Take attorneys on the NE coast, for example.




Theres two parts to this. Everyone gives to their own.. but even a publican loves their own family. All of those groups do some general charity work for the greater community at large. Not so the Jews. Actually I had difficulty finding any examples at all.

The second part of this is that none of those orgs you mentioned give their money outside the US. The Jews? **** tons. All leaving our shores for Eretz Yisrael. I find that not only unpatriotic and false but, frankly, I find it horribly loathesome and disgusting in light of Katrina, and other natural disasters. Moreover Jewish money could do wonders in poorer communities that need advances in public education, better instruments for poor kids, etc. Surely the Jews could be out there sandbagging in Fargo and helping with the relief effort there.




Ahh at last. Some honesty. You finally admit that the Jews are less giving than at least the Christians. Youll find that nearly every charitable organization in the US has SOME Christian emphasis. However, there arre many secular institutions who are wonderfully giving.

You say it as if its bad to evangelize. but maybe the jews would have better luck and be less despised by those who hate them(not me) if they were historically more giving? Again the stereotype comes into play. Shylock wasn't an evangelical Christian.....




This is actually not true. Catholics spend lots of money in the hospital sector, Lutherans too. Its unfortunate that the uber right evangelicals spend money in the education industry and churn out guys like Trickery...(at least we can agree on that) but I spose getting those guys to read anything is better than nothing? Many run schools, I'd like to see them all do more donations for roads in their areas at least. but many have adopted schools to outfit them for musical instruments.

Jews in the community at large... nada. Even if they had as benign an ulterior motive as conversion...it'd be better to give than to not.




Duly noted on the underlined part. It's the "why" we haven't until today, agreed upon. Glad you are finally on board.

When the Israelis do our dirty work in China, Japan, North Korea, South America, I'll ***** less, I promise. However, they are so spread thin in their fight against their Arab neighbors that that is never going to be likely.

Meanwhile, Marine Force Recon, Seals, Airborne, do enough illegal work around the world. I'm not saying Israel doesnt help at all... im saying they dont help enough to truly call them an ALLY.



Glad you asked. My point was simple: to illuminate what you have come to agree with.

1) That stereotypes of Jews in re giving aren't that far off. Granted the caricature takes it farther and into the realm of the insulting.. but that doesnt make it less true.

2) That prima facie Israel doesn't do any where near as much for us as we do them... which makes them not an ally, but really a welfare recipient who takes advantage. I've addressed the off the books stuff above.

3) If I've shown, and I have, that the Jews give nothing or very little to the American community at large and its common knowledge that billions leave our shores for Eretz Yisrael; essentially the Jews have put their money where their mouth is. They've confessed their love, with their dollar, for another country. Not the one that allows them to thrive and grow and be safe to worship as they wish, but the one that is so wartorn, strife-ridden, etc. that even THEY, YOU, don't want to move to it despite being able to.

4) To do some work to show that the Jewish Lobby, JINSA/AIPAC really do little other than to increase Jewish Influence over our Govt for the purposes of Israel, not the US solely. The Jews arent taking a leadership role in promoting American issues at home and abroad, they use said leadership to promote the needs and welfare of another country. I showed that briefly with quotes from Gen. Colin Powell and others.

I hold out hope that one day the Jews will be a vibrant part of the American fabric of life, that they will do their share to promote American ideals of community, sharing, faithfulness to one's country, and general fidelity to what is best for America, period and without qualification.

I hold out hope. But I'm not holding my breath.

Fatfencer

Wow, those were some very large opinions, but few facts. And some very wild distortions as well.

Let me put it this way, I've spent many years with many Korean friends. I've read Korean books, watched Korean movies... hell, my wife is Korean!! But I'm not going to sit here and opine that I know the Korean community better than a Korean raised in that community.

But that is exactly what you are doing here. Your views of the Jewish community are just wrong. I read your source articles and they don't come close to supporting what you claim they do. And your representations of other communities are based on stereotypes in some cases but ignore stereotypes as well. Asians aren't stereotyped to be as "cheap" as Jews? You haven't heard the things I've heard, and from Asians as well.

And what about all the money Christian organizations send outside the country? You virtually claim that doesn't exist yet all Jewish charity flows to Israel? Again these are gross distortions.

So you can claim that us Jews are biased and disregarding your "facts" and amazing arguments, or you can consider the fact that you came in here with a biased viewpoint with the simple purpose to stir up ****, and that the Jewish commenters here might actually know their community better than you. (This is rhetorical, btw, in case you feel the need to respond.)

[fatfencer]

[QUOTE=Hauptman;787181]

But that is exactly what you are doing here. Your views of the Jewish community are just wrong. I read your source articles and they don't come close to supporting what you claim they do. So you can claim that us Jews are biased and disregarding your "facts" and amazing arguments, or you can consider the fact that you came in here with a biased viewpoint with the simple purpose to stir up ****, and that the Jewish commenters here might actually know their community better than you. (This is rhetorical, btw, in case you feel the need to respond.)

The underlined part is the crux of your argumentation; it is patently false. Never once have you , nor anyone else, shown that I had an erroneous conclusion to a quote or a paper.

Period. This is where I challenge you to give a concrete and unbiased example. You will not be able to.

You are of course limited to the articles I quoted. Moreover you are admonished to look beyond the thesis of a given paragraph and see if the evidence offered within said paragraph actually supports said thesis.

You are a bald faced, shameful liar incapable of doing your own homework. Shame on you.

The nature of rhetoric and evidentiary debate REQUIRES you to do more than say 'I'm a jew and thus I know jews better than you.'

This is the kind of slovenly, pathetic intellectual faggotry I accused you of earlier. I had hoped that your more calm, non knee jerk demeanor of the past few posts signaled a desire to return to some form of reasonable discourse as opposed to jingoistic PC-based slurs.

Jews are not above evidence, or reason. You have shown such an incredible disdain for either.. so much so that I'm starting to feel a kind of shame for you. I expected better from anyone whose culture has nitpicky legalism as an underpinning.

Are you sure you aren't Trickery? You sure argue like him. Like an undereducated Redneck.

You're wife can't POSSIBLY be Korean. She'd have beat you to death by now. Korean women don't usually put up with the **** you must be giving her if you act this way.

FF

PS: You're style of thinking/argumentation has a new name. "Superscribe-ingly Gay".

PPS:

And what about all the money Christian organizations send outside the country? You virtually claim that doesn't exist yet all Jewish charity flows to Israel? Again these are gross distortions.

This is an example of a strawman, btw. This is NOT what I said at all. I argued the money flows in two parts, within the Jews of the US and towards Israel.

And yes, Christian Orgs do spend money extant of our borders but in addition many, most, etc. spend the bulk of their money here within the community at large... like YOU said previously. In fact you said they did that MORE SO than the Jews... cuz they are trying to convert people.

[Hauptman]

[QUOTE=fatfencer;787196]

This is the kind of slovenly, pathetic intellectual faggotry I accused you of earlier.

Are you sure you aren't Trickery? You sure argue like him. Like an undereducated Redneck.

You're wife can't POSSIBLY be Korean. She'd have beat you to death by now. Korean women don't usually put up with the **** you must be giving her if you act this way.

FF

PS: You're style of thinking/argumentation has a new name. "Superscribe-ingly Gay".

So much for civil discourse; I tried. Feel free to go on with your rants. I'm done.

[fatfencer]

So much for an attempt at scholarly discourse; I am proven incapable. Feel free to castigate and lambaste me. I've lost.

There, I've fixed it for you.

QED,

Fatfencer

[erooMynohtnA]

I gues it would be for the same reason Hitler wrote Mein Kampf.

[Wingate85]

I think I saw that used quite often at your club practices.

[fencerchica]

This is the kind of slovenly, pathetic intellectual faggotry I accused you of earlier. I had hoped that your more calm, non knee jerk demeanor of the past few posts signaled a desire to return to some form of reasonable discourse as opposed to jingoistic PC-based slurs.

FF, please stop throwing around anti-gay slur words like this. I know you have a different take on slur words but it's unpleasant to see ugly words like that flung around casually like they're nothing, and in a place like fnet too. It's not even the same as when people try to "reclaim" words like the f-word and n-word by putting a pseudo-positive spin on them, b/c you're not doing that, either. Hopefully you don't mean any harm by it, but even so I'd appreciate it if you'd lay off.