Why America supports the Jews/Israel

[Lemonaide]

Financial gain should never be the reason to enter a war. War is to fight evil. I would go to war to fight to defend weaker people against an evil ruler.

[fatfencer]

Tucson convention. I had to return. Dog was sick.

So....

Ok so look, theres still no bias despite whether I capitalize jew or Muslim or I don't.

I use those terms to mean the people of the Middle East that are in contention.

Just briefly before I go into the main of Jeff's post.

The discussion used as the fuel for this thread was from a talk I had with a jewish saber fencer in my club and also several I had over the years. As a kid I grew up in a small jewish enclave in my hometown and I do remember many bigoted comments against muslims.

Granted I dont think the destruction of the whole of the muslim world is what Israel has in mind. BUT most all of the jews I've ever spoke with DO THINK that the destruction of muslims in Israel is quite desirable. THey dont just want the land, they want complete annhilation of the Muslims in Israel. They want "it" on their terms. Yes Jeff this is war and they want to win.

I don't begrudge either side the concept of winning really. But the truth is is that they should share but both parties are too greedy and too prideful to acknowledge that whether or not someone was there a 1000 years earlier 5000 years ago just isn't enough to continue killing each other for.

Its the unwillingness to compromise that I as a third party take issue with. As Inq points out we shouldnt help the Palestinians either. Totally agree.

The jews don't need our money, but they are smart enough to hold their hands out and we as Americans seem dumb enough to give it to them.

Now in the main I dont believe we should help any other country when our own is in such a shambles. We have a border problem so massive it has bankrupted California and likely Arizona and NM. In AZ we have over 800k illegals in one county alone!

We have problems that require both money and our military manpower.

We are in the middle east largely to secure our business interests there which include the war machine. The other is Oil. I see the line about helping a 'democracy' as mere cover. There are SO MANY democracies in Europe we could be forging better alliances with. Why choose the most troublesome and stubborn and warmongering one? If we are going to choose that type of people to deal with then lets at least choose the WINNING side. Perhaps it will cost less and the conflict will end sooner.

We can forge better partnerships with Sweden, Denmark, Germany, France, the Swiss, etc. Or Romania and other countries. Greece too.

Our oil interests are really a cyst against humanity. A complex mix of solar, wind, hydrogen, hydroelectric, etc. would go along way to ameliorate our hunger for oil. What remains I think we can handle, especially if we forge stronger relations with South America.

Korea.

Ok look Jeff. Im not the slightest bit offended you mentioned it just because Im Korean. Many conservative Koreans look down on the college students protesting American Involvement. I have 4 uncles who were Korean Special Forces who volunteered to go to Nam as an attempt to payback the US for their interference in Korea. The younger kids just dont remember what the war was like.

However, I think that China and Russia pose far greater threats militarily and economically than Israel/Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, etc ever will. Im pretty sure that most military theorists would agree but who knows? I havent asked any. Just in terms of raw economic size China is an awesome threat. Having a forward base to curb aggression from a country that has finally awakened from its slumber is quite valuable.

We already have a presence in Europe to curb against Russian aggression so its not necessary to use Israel as an ally/base of operations.

They have been essentially useless in both Gulf Wars and in Afghanistan. So as I said earlier... they are a completely useless ally. Voting alone does not make them similar enough or useful enough to continue the war machine sales and financial contributions.

Korea and Japan however both could probably use whatever subsidies we can give them to forge a productive anti-Chinese defense... both financially and militarily.

So they are different. In fact its TOTALLY different. Asia matters, the Middle East only matters because we sell arms there and because we are dependent on oil. Otherwise its a few tribes warring as they have done for thousands of years. Why not give them their sandbox back?


The combination of lobby, plus jews in high places, plus shortsighted warmongering financial gain equals the real reason we support the jews. Its not a good reason. Our tax dollars need to stay at home to support kids and better schools, to solve our border problem, reform our financial system and to drastically change the way we transport ourselves, i.e. no oil!

And yes Jeff, if our situation at home continues to get worse we shouldnt support Korea either if its an 'either or' situation.

FF

PS: Jeff I hope you arent naive enough to believe that the US did Korea a favor. The US did what it did SOLELY because it was in its best interest to do so at the time. Korea just happened to benefit... if you can call it that. The war ravaged that country worse than anything that happened in Nam.

[jeff]

A much more moderate tone and rhetoric - yay, it can be done (or "Yes, we can")

General question is why pay for the defense of other countries that are wealthy. Japan is extremely wealthy, as is Germany, and Korea and Israel not bad off either. So, why do we expend $ to protect them (or in the case of Israel, for it to defend itself) when we have pressing needs at home. That's a completely separate issue than the specifics of each case (though I very much doubt that Israeli's want to "annihilate" Israeli Arabs. Marginalize them politically and treat them as 2nd class citizens - that's another thing)

Isolationism has always been a big part of US politics, despite the fact that we don't tend to do it. We demobilized 90% of US armed forces after WW II, as soon as we could. By coincidence, I'm reading a history of the 50's which includes the Korean War, and our troops (and the ROK) were completely unprepared for the war (and that glory hound Macarthur did not help things).

But, we didn't do it based on a calculation of what was in it for us, even more obviously than we didn't do it in Nam. We did it because of global political policies, rather than self interest. We had no economic interest in S. Korea. The global fight against Communism, and today's Middle Eastern conflicts are why we were and are involved. Just a reminder: Islamists don't hate us just for Israel, they also hate us for deposing Mosadegh (that covers Iran) and for having footprint in Saudi Arabia (that covers everyone else), and - in the minds of many - propping up the governments of Saudi Arabia and Egypt. It's convenient oversimplification to say "they hate us because we support Israel".

In the case of Korea I think it was necessary, because otherwise there would have been just one Korea based on the wacko personality cult of the North's regime, so we did tremendous good, painful as it was. Imagine the preceding 55 years if we hadn't intervened. (we agree on the "cyst" of oil, and on the kids being ninnies).

Obviously it doesn't always work out, and just as obviously our intervention can be harmful. But it doesn't proceed from an accounting position. And we intervene everywhere: we just started a pilot training program in Afghanistan that will cost $5B through 2012, for instance.

So, in my mind the questions to debate are: (a) should the US have an isolationist foreign policy and (b) should we not subsidize the defense of sovereign nations (or, should we have a sliding scale or discounts for poorer countries, or...)

I don't mind that discussion at all. I just didn't like the way the opening post framed it in the context of just one place and one group of people, in terms I thought inflammatory, false, and inappropriate.

[Hauptman]

Tucson convention. I had to return. Dog was sick.

So....

Ok so look, theres still no bias despite whether I capitalize jew or Muslim or I don't.

I use those terms to mean the people of the Middle East that are in contention.

Just briefly before I go into the main of Jeff's post.

The discussion used as the fuel for this thread was from a talk I had with a jewish saber fencer in my club and also several I had over the years. As a kid I grew up in a small jewish enclave in my hometown and I do remember many bigoted comments against muslims.

Granted I dont think the destruction of the whole of the muslim world is what Israel has in mind. BUT most all of the jews I've ever spoke with DO THINK that the destruction of muslims in Israel is quite desirable. THey dont just want the land, they want complete annhilation of the Muslims in Israel. They want "it" on their terms. Yes Jeff this is war and they want to win.

I don't begrudge either side the concept of winning really. But the truth is is that they should share but both parties are too greedy and too prideful to acknowledge that whether or not someone was there a 1000 years earlier 5000 years ago just isn't enough to continue killing each other for.

Its the unwillingness to compromise that I as a third party take issue with. As Inq points out we shouldnt help the Palestinians either. Totally agree.

The jews don't need our money, but they are smart enough to hold their hands out and we as Americans seem dumb enough to give it to them.

Now in the main I dont believe we should help any other country when our own is in such a shambles. We have a border problem so massive it has bankrupted California and likely Arizona and NM. In AZ we have over 800k illegals in one county alone!

We have problems that require both money and our military manpower.

We are in the middle east largely to secure our business interests there which include the war machine. The other is Oil. I see the line about helping a 'democracy' as mere cover. There are SO MANY democracies in Europe we could be forging better alliances with. Why choose the most troublesome and stubborn and warmongering one? If we are going to choose that type of people to deal with then lets at least choose the WINNING side. Perhaps it will cost less and the conflict will end sooner.

We can forge better partnerships with Sweden, Denmark, Germany, France, the Swiss, etc. Or Romania and other countries. Greece too.

Our oil interests are really a cyst against humanity. A complex mix of solar, wind, hydrogen, hydroelectric, etc. would go along way to ameliorate our hunger for oil. What remains I think we can handle, especially if we forge stronger relations with South America.

Korea.

Ok look Jeff. Im not the slightest bit offended you mentioned it just because Im Korean. Many conservative Koreans look down on the college students protesting American Involvement. I have 4 uncles who were Korean Special Forces who volunteered to go to Nam as an attempt to payback the US for their interference in Korea. The younger kids just dont remember what the war was like.

However, I think that China and Russia pose far greater threats militarily and economically than Israel/Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, etc ever will. Im pretty sure that most military theorists would agree but who knows? I havent asked any. Just in terms of raw economic size China is an awesome threat. Having a forward base to curb aggression from a country that has finally awakened from its slumber is quite valuable.

We already have a presence in Europe to curb against Russian aggression so its not necessary to use Israel as an ally/base of operations.

They have been essentially useless in both Gulf Wars and in Afghanistan. So as I said earlier... they are a completely useless ally. Voting alone does not make them similar enough or useful enough to continue the war machine sales and financial contributions.

Korea and Japan however both could probably use whatever subsidies we can give them to forge a productive anti-Chinese defense... both financially and militarily.

So they are different. In fact its TOTALLY different. Asia matters, the Middle East only matters because we sell arms there and because we are dependent on oil. Otherwise its a few tribes warring as they have done for thousands of years. Why not give them their sandbox back?


The combination of lobby, plus jews in high places, plus shortsighted warmongering financial gain equals the real reason we support the jews. Its not a good reason. Our tax dollars need to stay at home to support kids and better schools, to solve our border problem, reform our financial system and to drastically change the way we transport ourselves, i.e. no oil!

And yes Jeff, if our situation at home continues to get worse we shouldnt support Korea either if its an 'either or' situation.

FF

PS: Jeff I hope you arent naive enough to believe that the US did Korea a favor. The US did what it did SOLELY because it was in its best interest to do so at the time. Korea just happened to benefit... if you can call it that. The war ravaged that country worse than anything that happened in Nam.

Interesting post. Let me start by saying that I believe that you believe everything you are saying, but that still doesn't give it much credence. As the old joke goes, "Denial" ain't just a river in Egypt.

To say that China and Russia are bigger military threats to the United States than the middle-east is certainly open to debate. How many Americans have been killed by Russia or China (or even threatened) in the last 20 years versus Muslim fanatics and their gov't supporters?

And how exactly are Russia and China a threat to us economically? If anything the more successfully capitalistic they become, the better off, and more secure, the rest of world will be.

As to your experiences with the "jewish enclave" near you, I would suggest that they don't even come close to representing the larger views of the American Jewish community. There are extremists of all persuasions, so don't let the extremes bias your world view.

Finally, I'm still confused as to why you continue to capitalize the name of every other group except Jews, even after having it pointed out to you. Freud would have a field day with that.

[Inquartata]

However, I think that China and Russia pose far greater threats militarily and economically than Israel/Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, etc ever will.

Yes. That doesn't mean that we can ignore everyone else, though. If a gang breaks into your house, you don't hold the biggest guy at gunpoint while the others ransack the place.

Remember, too, that we are not really finished with the proxy wars of the Cold War era. The Chinese and Russians are funding and supporting Iran, Syria and others in the Middle East and elsewhere to work their will to at least some extent. We cannot afford to let them advance unopposed there, and we cannot dispute them directly, so there is little choice but to work through agents and alliances, just as they do.

Asia matters, the Middle East only matters because we sell arms there and because we are dependent on oil.

You're arguing that the "domino effect" applies in Asia but nowhere else?

Why?

Otherwise its a few tribes warring as they have done for thousands of years. Why not give them their sandbox back?

Because as I said above, it's NOT just warring tribes. It's their Chinese and Russian backers and suppliers. You want to hand Russia an even tighter stranglehold on the world oil and gas supply than it already has? And even if WE managed somehow to shed our reliance on imports, do you think it would be good for us if they could still bully our trading partners elsewhere in the world using the petroleum lever, as they have been doing with Ukraine and Georgia and others?

But, we didn't do it based on a calculation of what was in it for us, even more obviously than we didn't do it in Nam. We did it because of global political policies, rather than self interest. We had no economic interest in S. Korea. The global fight against Communism, and today's Middle Eastern conflicts are why we were and are involved.

I have to disagree on this point. Perhaps it's only because I'm an economist, but I think that political and economic interests are inextricably intertwined. I think that we support democracies not only because we believe in that system and that ideology but because we believe that that system and ideology are better for capitalism and better for trade and growth and hence better for our economic interests...

I think that we decided that we had to fight back the advance of communism in Asia and elsewhere because we could not afford to lose markets and trading partners to what is as much an inimical economic system as a political one. Ultimately we could not survive as a single nation in autarky, any more than we could do so as one in political isolationism...

[fatfencer]

snip!!! for brevity and uselessness

So, in my mind the questions to debate are: (a) should the US have an isolationist foreign policy and (b) should we not subsidize the defense of sovereign nations (or, should we have a sliding scale or discounts for poorer countries, or...)

I don't mind that discussion at all. I just didn't like the way the opening post framed it in the context of just one place and one group of people, in terms I thought inflammatory, false, and inappropriate.

I picked the jews for several reasons

1) its a hot topic and there are many zionist jews in the US.

2) There are many on this board and in fencing

3) I think they are the cause of a great deal of horror in the world as well as a recipient of a great deal of misery and suffering. Its a complex case worthy of discussion. No one gives a **** about whether or not we should subsidize Ecuador... except to say that most people would likely agree that we should not given our difficulties at home. The jews... another story.

I do not believe that countries should form around a primarily religious basis, ESPECIALLY IF its only one religion and not many.

The jews and muslims have been warring forever and larger countries use their conflict as a means to make money via arms sales. I think deep down they know this. This means they are being used. I also think that their hatred of one another is a problem that should be solved. Even if it means being solved DESPITE their best interests... i.e. make them go kablooie!

After all, we've given both parties so much money, protection, weapons, etc over the years don't we own them? If not, giving money and getting nothing in return is stupid. I hate to think our country is being stupid. However the last 8 years shows me otherwise.

If we cant blow them up then perhaps we should pursue an alternative energy policy and remove our national interests completely from the Middle East. Then, I think the jewish lobby, despite its power here in the US, would have much difficulty in arguing for the multibilliondollar foodstamp/guns policy.

Yes Jeff, I think 1 BILLIONplus people is a larger threat than the whole of the middle east. I also think that they have great strategic understanding and a history that the Middle East doesnt have. Finally their economy and their use of it against us is a terrible thing. Far greater than 9/11 or any physical destruction. So I think that having a strong presence in Asia is necessary. But an 'ally' in the Middle East? Hardly.

To Hauptman.... I typically capitalize proper names of countries and not necessarily ethnic groupings. Freudian slip, you say? Well perhaps I'll clear it up for you.

I have no love lost for any ethnicity. Im an individualist. If they happen to be a jew or gentile or black or whatever, makes no difference. I decide the worth of a person based SOLELY on how they treat me. Other people really dont come into play.

However, if the jews, the muslims, the whole of the Middle East region were to die in a conflagration of nuclear misery...well I'd have tears of joy running down my face.

Two groups of people who after thousands of years cannot figure out how to live in peace. They need to be removed from the gene pool for their stupidity.

Fatfencer

[Lemonaide]

Fat, I am dissapointed, you sound pretty weird like a tin god or something, maybe you should put some lightening bolts on your sleeve? You need to chill out. Put on some rap. Listen to my favorite rap of Fat Boys - for real. They're from Brooklyn and their stuff is 1980's from a mellower time. I'm sorry about your dog - is he a poodle by any chance? Think about it. We could make french toast if you know what I mean? [heh heh heeh he ha ha ha haaaa] peace!

[Hauptman]

However, if the jews, the muslims, the whole of the Middle East region were to die in a conflagration of nuclear misery...well I'd have tears of joy running down my face.

Two groups of people who after thousands of years cannot figure out how to live in peace. They need to be removed from the gene pool for their stupidity.

Fatfencer

You just lost all credibility. That is as arrogant, callous, and self-satisfied a statement as I have ever seen.

And in case you haven't noticed, the various groups in Asia have been continuously at war for as long, as self-destructively, and by your standard as stupidly, as anyone else.

I'm done with this thread.

[Wingate85]

I'm done with this thread.[/QUOTE]

This should have been the initial and only response to this launatic.

[fatfencer]

You just lost all credibility. That is as arrogant, callous, and self-satisfied a statement as I have ever seen.

And in case you haven't noticed, the various groups in Asia have been continuously at war for as long, as self-destructively, and by your standard as stupidly, as anyone else.

I'm done with this thread.

Hmm, perhaps you should name a couple of these groups? Do these groups have the same type of wealth? Do they have the same type of financial support? Are these groups represented in fencing? Some people should try and step outside of their ethnic roles and see a clearer, neutral third party picture.

SE Asia has warring tribes, but nothing on the same scale as Israel vs Palestinians. The Far East Asian countries are quite stable. Vietnam/Burma are the strongest arguments and yes, if they are acting stupidly and killing lots of innocents on both sides in the process then perhaps too they should be removed from the gene pool? Hell, much of East Africa fits this too. Doesnt mean I hate blacks. I just hate prolonged, slow genocide. Just get it over with.

People are desperately trying to turn this into something it isnt. I'm not the least bit anti semitic, anti muslim, etc. I am anti stupidity. Perpetuating violence forever isn't a good thing. The war between the jews and muslims will go on forever it seems, fueled by hatred towards one another and funded by the US, Russia and whomever else is making a buck off it. Mark my words, there will never be a day when the world will be free of this cyst until we decide the past is past and nothing can be done about it. This conflict DEFINES both cultures so much that both sides seem loathe to let it go and reach a constructive solvency.

If you are a jew and are offended by this thread I really could care less. If you are a muslim...ditto.

If you are caucasian and are offended by this thread because you feel you are 'supposed' to be, then you are a retard.


FF

PS: When the League of Nations (really US and Britain)was deciding on whether or not to make Israel a country, why did they decide to put it there?

PPS: I am aware that saying this is much akin to me going to a Korean College forum and telling them that they are wrong for protesting the US. But arent some of you smarter?

PPPS: There seems to be a dichotomy between Israel being a Zionist construct and the fact that there are still more jews extant of it. Explain.

[Fencer X and Y]

FF

PS: When the League of Nations (really US and Britain)was deciding on whether or not to make Israel a country, why did they decide to put it there?

Anyone wants to play the game "can you find five things wrong with that sentence?"

[telkanuru]

The US was a member of the League of Nations?

[Fencer X and Y]

That's one thing

[jeff]

Too easy! And that the country the League of Nations established was Transjordan - later the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, not Israel. Maybe the game should be "find anything right in the sentence".

[Fencer X and Y]

Finding anything right in that sentence would be impossible. Seriously other then the fact that Britain was a part of LoN that sentence makes no sense at all.

[fatfencer]

It was late and I was tired. My bad.

It's all Britain's fault it seems. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/662045/posts

Besides it was the UN that adopted the final resolution....

Regardless, there seems a huge post that everyone is ignoring.

Again, my bad.

FF

PS: Here's an excerpt from the link above. It seems to be anti Israel (I apologize for that) but the facts SEEM are reasonably correct. I tried to find some historical summary quickly to explain what I meant.

Truman was involved well before the creation of Israel and the first to recognize Israel as a nation. Maybe thats what I meant. I dunno. It was late and 5HourEnergy only does so much.

President Truman, on the advice of the State Department, reversed his position on Palestine and agreed to delay the partition. Additionally…the British were fed up with the Jewish clandestine groups attacking them so they helped support the Arabs.
Meanwhile, these underground Jewish groups were able to create a communication network…linking them with the various Jewish settlements throughout Palestine.
Around the same time, Chaim Weizmann, leader of the Zioinists, was able to convince President Truman to change his position AGAIN and support the Jews.
Then it finally happened….


On May 14, 1948…the Jews declared the establishment of the state of Israel. The next day, Britain renounced its mandate over Palestine AND the US recognized the state of Israel. The Soviet Union followed suit…along with DOZENS of other countries.
A year later in May 1949…Israel became a member of the UN[/U].

[Hauptman]

FreeRepublic.com? Do you realize that is one of the most biased, "all liberals are America-hating scum", right-wing forums out there?

[Fencer X and Y]

Truman was involved well before the creation of Israel and the first to recognize Israel as a nation. Maybe thats what I meant. I dunno.

You don't even know what you meant? Then how are the rest of us supposed to?

Oh and if by

...5HourEnergy only does so much.

you mean 5hourenergy doesn't make you any more knowledgebale on issues you very clearly have no idea what you'e talking about, then yes, you're right, I'm not surprised it didn't help you.

...People are desperately trying to turn this into something it isnt. I'm not the least bit anti semitic, anti muslim, etc. I am anti stupidity.

Wow you must really hate yourself then huh?

[fatfencer]

Essentially correct even if a factoid wasnt.

If you read that free republic blurb it comes from a BBC special about how Israel became a nation.

Fact is the US had a great deal of CAUSAL involvement and Britain too.

Why did we let them choose this plot of land? If ever there was a time to displace a culture to another part of the world. Look at how much fighting and suffering wouldn't exist? Both the US and Britain have constantly and consistently interefered with other countries on a systemic level. Why not then and worse yet, why not now? Now we have to pay money to let them kill each other. Can't they just do it for free? Why does killing cost so much? Just because they went through the Holocaust doesn't entitle them to spend our tax dollars..

Leave them to their own devices and they will kill eachother slowly. Why can't any of you see this?

I say we use our civil engineering know how and move the Wailing Wall and other artifacts to someplace where the jews can live in peace and continue to worship their God as they like. Hell. We can move them to Wyoming...save the zionist jews on plane fare to an international destination. Now they can all use Southwest and take advantage of some great specials. Lord knows they appreciate a good deal!!!

But seriously folks, I dont look at this from any other perspective than that of an American citizen who feels their tax dollars are being misused. God knows, I love my fellow mexican Americans... but them illegals got to GO!!

We need to spend our money on more pressing problems at home BEFORE we go outside our borders to fix other peoples problems. A country builds its power from the inside out. We dont really fix world problems anyways... we just throw money to perpetuate them. Wrong thinking.

Stop supporting any aspect of the Middle East. No more foreign oil purchases to feed the arab terrorists... and no more subsidies to the jews.

America First!!!!

Fatfencer

[Cappy]

I agree that the USA probably shouldn't be sending out so much foreign aid, but I don't understand the claim that "the jews" refuse any compromise in ending the conflict. When the UN (or was it the League of Nations?) suggested the partition of the country which would have created an independent Palestine occupying the Gaza strip and the West Bank I think every Jewish political organization around at the time accepted the proposal. It was the Palestinian groups that would not accept anything but one country ruled exclusively by Arabs. In addition, I know the state of Israel officially agreed to a similar partition on at least one occasion (I think several.)

Anyway, I think it must be irritating to have foreigners show up in your country and try to take over, but I don't agree with this idea that the violence continues because Israel refuses to compromise. I think Israel's only goal since its declaration of independence has always been survival.