Which safety rules should be strict?

[TBean]

I know at last year's NAC I had a bit of hip that kept getting exposed due to my um "increased target area" I had gained from my surgery and meds. After a couple of touches before he would bring us en guard he would ask me to "tuck it back in." After the bout he asked me to try and fix it. Tape worked. I then went to the "House of Portly fencers before nationals. If you ask me, that was good common sense reffing.

The overlap rule is not one to be ignored. Recently I was watching another lefty at our club whose knickers would not stay up, so you were seeing a huge gap between the jacket and knickers, and his t-shirt kept coming untucked.

All I could envision was a low touch hitting that gap point, going straight up under his jacket and t-shirt. That would have been a nasty scrap, and the event of a broken blade that had the potential to be a puncture wound or even better going right up under his ribs. I understand the possibility is remote, but nonetheless it exists. He ultimately found a pair of club knickers to wear.

[oiuyt]

Snow camo? Wouldn't they be white?

Not if you don't want to stand out against the backdrop of snow.

-B

[parrythis]

It is foolish to debate whether a given rule is worth enforcing or not. The rules are there because someone already went through the debate process and came to a conclusion that the rule was necessary. Whether it is necessary because of a real concern for safety or simply to make an insurance underwriter happy is immaterial.

The real issue is that when we selectively choose what rules to enforce at the local level - regardless whether they are safety or equipment related - we are setting our emerging athletes up for failure as they advance to higher competitions. By allowing fencers to get away with things that would merit a penalty at a NAC, we are doing them no favors.

Let's take the socks issue as an example. I have seen any number of "local" tournaments in which the "socks" rule was not enforced. It was just a "local" tournament so no big deal, right? I also recall being at a NAC where the "socks" rule was enforced. One local fencer had a very bad day when his socks kept falling down. Would he have been better prepared for the NAC if the local tournaments had enforced the rule? I tend to think so. I expect that if the rule had been enforced on the local level he would have had the problem solved before he walked in the door at the NAC.

The same goes for other things as well. I have seen things like weights & shims, number of weapons on piste, number of body cords on piste, plastron, knickers, socks, length of glove, tip screws, etc. all trip fencers up as they move to higher-level tournaments. How much of this grief could be avoided if we followed the same rules on all levels? A lot, I think.

Often local tournament organizers think that they are doing the fencers a favor by "going easy" on them. While I understand the philosophy, I don't believe that it is truly in the best interest of the fencers.

[epeemike81]

Socks, eh, I think socks are a safety thing.

"It's a sock. It's not an 800 Newton sock. It's not a 350 Newton sock. It's a Sock!" -DJ Apostrophe.

That said, despite my disagreement about this being a real issue for safety, in my application of the rules I agree with this:

If someone in competition is fencing with normal socks, I won't let them fence. If their fencing socks keep falling down an inch or 2, its not the end of the world.

I can't really think of any other safety rule that can/should be ignored.

[swordwench]

Along these lines... I was reffing a college tournament last weekend, and the ref at a nearby strip was instructing one of the fencers to pull up his socks, because there was a gap. This fencer was freakishly tall (men's epee - quelle surprise), experienced, and the socks were obviously long socks - ones that would have come about halfway up my thigh. I can't imagine where one would BUY a sock to fit this guy's legs. The fencer tried repeatedly to please the ref, yanking them up as high as he possibly could, and it seemed to just drag the bout on forever.

At one point, I was afraid the fencer's temper had reach the boiling point and he was going to smack the ref. I felt like going over and telling the ref to lighten up, but hey, rules is rules, and I know that this guy follows the rules to the letter. I don't know if the kid got carded or not - he certainly didn't on my strip. Maybe I'm in the wrong, but it seemed like common sense at the time.

[Rockstar44]

Not if you don't want to stand out against the backdrop of snow.

-B

??? Yeah, what I said....

[Superscribe]

Rules are applied with discretion, even at the highest levels of fencing.Even rules pertaining to safety. That's why there was an article in American Fencing magazine in the first place. I think as a whole, ref's are doing a much better job of it though.

There are some rules that have historically not been enforced well. One of the main reasons? It wasn't worth the effort to enforce. The most obvious example? Tip tape on foils. What about the bend on some blades? People should think about the full ramifications of their sweeping generalizations.

The very fact that you have the qualifier "By allowing fencers to get away with things that would merit a penalty at a NAC, we are doing them no favors." indicates that it is most decidedly NOT foolish to debate whether a given rule is worth enforncing.

There is such a fine line between "practical" and "foolish", it all depends on your view at the time, and if your breakfast was to your liking that morning.

One thing i've noticed was the strap at the back of the mask. I've seen a couple tournaments where there was no strap. This was because people at the tournament didn't realize the strap was now necassary.

[erik_blank]

??? Yeah, what I said....

try this site for an example... http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=506859

[Superscribe]

??? Yeah, what I said....

A simple google for Snow Camo might indicate that white is generally not the color of choice for people who have a stake in blending in with the snow. Like military operatives.

It's debatable though.

http://www.survival-solutions.com/id78.html

I think "snow" colored socks would have been the right answer for the discerning fencing coach.

[telkanuru]

Socks, eh, I think socks are a safety thing.

Having already established in another thread that they aren't, I can only assume you're idiotically stubborn or retarded.

Unless someone is vigorously rubbing a foil on your leg. Then they stop you from catching fire.

[Rockstar44]

Having already established in another thread that they aren't, I can only assume you're idiotically stubborn or retarded.

Seems like we established in this one that they are....

[Purple Fencer]

Unless someone is vigorously rubbing a foil on your leg. Then they stop you from catching fire.

*shudders at the thought of that many metal splinters...*

[oiuyt]

??? Yeah, what I said....

Snow, especially in large quantities, is not just white.

If you want to blend in with a background of snow, pure white is a poor choice of color. If you want to blend in with (almost) ANYTHING, large areas of a single color is poor choice of pattern.

-B

[Inquartata]

Having already established in another thread that they aren't, I can only assume you're idiotically stubborn or retarded.

Having "established" no such thing anywhere other than in your own mind, I can only assume you're delusional or megalomaniacal.

[mrbiggs]

Try that with George K around.

It's not universal, and I don't think it's a good thing, but in general a fencer can get away with quite a bit less than 10 cm (IIRC) of overlap so long as the referee doesn't see skin.

I can't promise you won't get carded or that it's a good idea, but it is a rule that tends to be on the lax side of enforcement. Certainly on the local level.

[parrythis]

Rules are applied with discretion, even at the highest levels of fencing.Even rules pertaining to safety. That's why there was an article in American Fencing magazine in the first place. I think as a whole, ref's are doing a much better job of it though.

There are some rules that have historically not been enforced well. One of the main reasons? It wasn't worth the effort to enforce. The most obvious example? Tip tape on foils. What about the bend on some blades? People should think about the full ramifications of their sweeping generalizations.

The very fact that you have the qualifier "By allowing fencers to get away with things that would merit a penalty at a NAC, we are doing them no favors." indicates that it is most decidedly NOT foolish to debate whether a given rule is worth enforncing.

There is such a fine line between "practical" and "foolish", it all depends on your view at the time, and if your breakfast was to your liking that morning.

One thing i've noticed was the strap at the back of the mask. I've seen a couple tournaments where there was no strap. This was because people at the tournament didn't realize the strap was now necassary.

Reverselunge... Is that you?????

[Morale Officer]

Snow camo? Wouldn't they be white?

Black, White, and Gray. lol

[Superscribe]

Reverselunge... Is that you?????

No, it's not me.

I mean...

Seriously though, was this Reverselunge person also someone who pointed out premature arguements and demonstrated the holes in them?

[Purple Fencer]

Black, White, and Gray. lol

Yep...you have to account for shadows.

[Rockstar44]

Yep...you have to account for shadows.

PLEASE! EVERYBODY STOP!

Read this: http://www.survival-solutions.com/id78.html

Courtesy of Superscribe.

Now, can we get back on topic?