taking the blade

[epeefencer74]

I going to have to disagree on your comment about quarte D'Art. It is possible to take a bind in quarte, as well as be a really effective parry aginst both like handed and opposite handed fencers. Usually I would preceed the bind in quarte with an engagement in sixte. On the opponent's disengagement, to immediately take the blade in quarte and lunge. From this type of one-two setup it is possible to go on to more complex moves by adding ceding parries successive takings of the blade and close quarter fighting. One of the first blade work lessons my students would learn is the taking of the blade in sixte, quarte and octave. I have a few who are really good at taking the blade in quarte while attacking.

[veeco]

I think it is possible and quite an important part of any lefty's game to be able to take the blade in 4.

Going all out unexposed in 4 is risky, but it can be used, if done at the right timing. For instance, if after 4 successful feint 4 disengage you go all out in 4, there is a chance that your opponent will anticipate a disengage as you did before and therefore will end up skewered nicely.

As a lefty, I used to be able to only go for hits on the outside. I have beefed up my game and can now finish pretty much everywhere: top, bottom, inside and out.

You need to if you really want to be a complete fencer.

[DJ Apostrophe]

I will use 4 on occasion... but most of the time it is 6, or even 8 i'll use more than 4... i'm still learning (only been fencing a little over a year now) i didn't say that the outside was my only target... it's just my primary target...

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by epeefencer74
I going to have to disagree on your comment about quarte D'Art. It is possible to take a bind in quarte, as well as be a really effective parry aginst both like handed and opposite handed fencers. Usually I would preceed the bind in quarte with an engagement in sixte. On the opponent's disengagement, to immediately take the blade in quarte and lunge.

Pet Peeve:
No, it is actually NOT possible to take a bind in quarte. A bind is a diagonal transfer (i.e. 4-8, 6-7). What you have described is a simple take or parry (depending on the timing).

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by DJ Apostrophe
I will use 4 on occasion... but most of the time it is 6, or even 8 i'll use more than 4... i'm still learning (only been fencing a little over a year now) i didn't say that the outside was my only target... it's just my primary target...

And that is about the right proportions. 4 should be used rarely in epee. does it have its uses? yes. but, in a game which is mostly a game of chicken where you don't want to make the first mistake, it is a bit too committed for my taste.

-m

[veeco]

Originally posted by epeemike81
Pet Peeve:
No, it is actually NOT possible to take a bind in quarte. A bind is a diagonal transfer (i.e. 4-8, 6-7). What you have described is a simple take or parry (depending on the timing).

-m

It's totally possible to take a bind in quarte: 2-4 or 8-4. Now, whether it's used or not, that's another story, but it is possible. I have actually worked on this in lesson.

[oiuyt]

... you have now left the outside of your arm, which is my prime target at all times, wide open.. <SNIP>... i never use 4 on a righty (or much on a lefty for that matter) id much rather use counter-6 and keep you to the outside...

Wayne- You first state that the outside of the arm is your primary target and then say that you want to keep your opponent to the outside. If it's your primary target it's also likely your opponent's primary target. And I agree with you, outside of the arm is my primary target when fencing epee against a lefty. That's WHY 4 is useful. Also because the arms are so much in alignment the 4 parry needn't be anywhere NEAR as wide as in same handed encounters. If your 4 moves more than about the width of the bell guard you're doing too much with it most of the time. If more were needed a stop to the arm would be better (again, most of the time). I make parries differently when I'm fencing a lefty vs. when I'm fencing a righty.

Same handed fencers I'll rarely use 4. Sometimes as a fleche defense, enough to make myself less predictable, and used against the low percentage pick off shots to the inside of wrist, that's about it. When used it can be effective and frequently safer combined with a bind to 8. Some times as a surprise opposition thrust (usually with fleche). That's about it.

Remise- To answer your original question, think taking an parry with opposition riposte. Now also do it without having your opponent attack first. The action is the same whether your opponent attacks, presents, or is still on guard. All the same drills will help, all the advice you get for any of the above situations applies for all of them. The leverage can be somewhat different as well as the amount of time required to arrive at target and the amount of extension that you'll want before the engagement, but those are mostly details that you'll want to work out empirically anyway. Hope that helps.

-B :)

[135711]

13577 is dead on, a solid application of point control is very essential in epee fencing. The tip should never wobble away from an opponent's wrist. You know you have good point control when you hit the wrist without even meaning too because your point was perfectly in line. I am not sure what Dreadfoil means about a bind in quarte. I have been taught by the books that I read that quarte, in epee mind you, is to be avoided in quarte. That said, quarte is a good move to use against a left-handed fencer.

Not only that,but you should use your opponents momentum.

[epeefencer74]

Originally posted by epeemike81
Pet Peeve:
No, it is actually NOT possible to take a bind in quarte. A bind is a diagonal transfer (i.e. 4-8, 6-7). What you have described is a simple take or parry (depending on the timing).

-m

Ok, since that is the definition of a bind I put it to you that it is possible to take a bind in 4. Going 8-4 is possible and can be succesful employed. In fact, with this definition I feel that you can concievable bind to any line, be it 6 4 7 or 8. While we are at this can someone define the diffrence between a bind, cross and an envelopment?

[epeefencer74]

Ok from what I have read in this thread. Most of you seem to advocate avoiding any sort of taking of the blade in quarte. Now this is something that runs contrary to my training. I have been taught to use all moves, be it in quarte, sixte septime... etc to my advantage, and I actually find that the quarte is essential to my game, either as an attack or as a defensive move. This philosophy was not a product of a single demented coach (although my first coach and now friend can be quite nuts at times) but it has been a consistent trend through all three of my coaches. BTW these three coaches appeared at different times in my life and are in no way related to each other. I do admit however that the sixte parry/taking of the blade is easier to teach and employ, but does that mean we should avoid quarte? No I don't think so. To do so would be to limit oneself. Comments? Opinions?

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by veeco
It's totally possible to take a bind in quarte: 2-4 or 8-4. Now, whether it's used or not, that's another story, but it is possible. I have actually worked on this in lesson.

but my point is that you can't simply bind in 4. an 8-4 bind is just that. you must specify both lines to talk about a bind. The person I was correcting was talking NOT about a 2-4 or an 8-4, but rather about just a 4. it is a common misconception that many fencers have that a parry riposte w/ opposition is a bind. I was simply pointing out it is NOT.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by epeefencer74
Ok, since that is the definition of a bind I put it to you that it is possible to take a bind in 4. Going 8-4 is possible and can be succesful employed. In fact, with this definition I feel that you can concievable bind to any line, be it 6 4 7 or 8. While we are at this can someone define the diffrence between a bind, cross and an envelopment?

yes you can do an 8-4 bind. no you cannot do a 4 bind. you need to specify. Also, be honest: when you said bind in your original post, you were NOT referring to an 8-4 bind. I was simply pointing out the error in that, as it is an error made by MANY fencers.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by epeefencer74
Ok from what I have read in this thread. Most of you seem to advocate avoiding any sort of taking of the blade in quarte. Now this is something that runs contrary to my training. I have been taught to use all moves, be it in quarte, sixte septime... etc to my advantage, and I actually find that the quarte is essential to my game, either as an attack or as a defensive move. This philosophy was not a product of a single demented coach (although my first coach and now friend can be quite nuts at times) but it has been a consistent trend through all three of my coaches. BTW these three coaches appeared at different times in my life and are in no way related to each other. I do admit however that the sixte parry/taking of the blade is easier to teach and employ, but does that mean we should avoid quarte? No I don't think so. To do so would be to limit oneself. Comments? Opinions?

What Wayne said is partially correct: quarte does expose your arm too much (only difference is that it is true against like handed fencers, not opposite handed). the difference is that 6,2, and 8 are executed by moving the blade, but leaving the hand in close to the same position. thus, your hand is still relatively covered. four, however, requires the guard to move and more significantly exposes your arm. This means, of course, that if you attempt to take in four and they disengage, they have a clear shot at a very close target. If you attempt to take in six and they disengage, your arm is still covered. It is not that four isn't useful at times, it is that it is very often not worth the risk. I have been through four unrelated coaches, and all of them taught that four should not be used much against like handed fencers.

-m

[veeco]

Originally posted by epeemike81
but my point is that you can't simply bind in 4. an 8-4 bind is just that. you must specify both lines to talk about a bind. The person I was correcting was talking NOT about a 2-4 or an 8-4, but rather about just a 4. it is a common misconception that many fencers have that a parry riposte w/ opposition is a bind. I was simply pointing out it is NOT.

-m

Gotcha!

[epeefencer74]

Originally posted by epeemike81
yes you can do an 8-4 bind. no you cannot do a 4 bind. you need to specify. Also, be honest: when you said bind in your original post, you were NOT referring to an 8-4 bind. I was simply pointing out the error in that, as it is an error made by MANY fencers.

-m

Agreed, What I was referring too was actually a taking of the blade in quarte and hitting with opposition. Error on my part. As to the next part of my post regarding the difference between bind, cross and envelopment, is there anyone who can give a difinitive answer to this? I have several books all concentrating on epee, and in them I see 2 different definitions of the 3 moves. Very confused.

[epeefencer74]

Originally posted by epeemike81
What Wayne said is partially correct: quarte does expose your arm too much (only difference is that it is true against like handed fencers, not opposite handed). the difference is that 6,2, and 8 are executed by moving the blade, but leaving the hand in close to the same position. thus, your hand is still relatively covered. four, however, requires the guard to move and more significantly exposes your arm. This means, of course, that if you attempt to take in four and they disengage, they have a clear shot at a very close target. If you attempt to take in six and they disengage, your arm is still covered. It is not that four isn't useful at times, it is that it is very often not worth the risk. I have been through four unrelated coaches, and all of them taught that four should not be used much against like handed fencers.

-m

Difference of opinion here. Agree with you that quarte does expose arm to a disengage stop hit, but evaluation of the risk involved differ. I feel the risk of exposing the arm is a calculated risk that I would be willing to take.It also depends on my reading of the opponent. My point is that I would not forsake the quarte just because it opens up more target area, and I would employ when I feel it is most justified or useful whether it's against like handed or opposite handed fencers. Again this is personal preference, its just the way I fence. Seems like I am the minority here. That said, just off the top of my head has anyone ever seen an epee fencer come on guard in quarte? I know it sounds really crazy but it is not inconcievble is it? It is mentioned in M. Gaugler's book although I don't see the rational behind it.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by epeefencer74
Difference of opinion here. Agree with you that quarte does expose arm to a disengage stop hit, but evaluation of the risk involved differ. I feel the risk of exposing the arm is a calculated risk that I would be willing to take.It also depends on my reading of the opponent. My point is that I would not forsake the quarte just because it opens up more target area, and I would employ when I feel it is most justified or useful whether it's against like handed or opposite handed fencers.

You have said nothing I inherently disagree with. I didn't say you should NEVER use quarte, just that you should use it significantly less often. Think of it as a risk/benefit analysis. as you just admitted, the quarte has higher risk. since it has higher risk, the risk/benefit analysis will be "worth it" less often. Thus, it should be used rarely.

-m

[oiuyt]

Croisse (sp?) is a vertical transfer, envelopment is a circular transfer, bind is a diagonal transfer.

As previously mentioned, binds go from high to opposite low or vice versa (eg 4->8, 7->6, etc.). An envelopment progressively controls the opponent's blade in a circular motion back to the original line (eg 6->6, 4->4, etc.). A Croisse (or cross) transports the opponent's blade from a high to low line on the same side or vice versa (eg 6->8, 4->7, etc.). Problem with the vertical transfers is that while you have a line closed, your opponent's blade is no longer on the correct (closed) side of your blade.

Does that help clarify?

-B :)

[135711]

taking the blade is always a risk, a high risk, you have to be strong to do this, i used to do it all the time as a beginner, it helps to understand and learn the position of your opponents weapon, however, most advanced fencers use this sparringly, as you may have read the russian's methodology is something that is superior in style: absence of blade. you know where your opponents blade is intuitively, the feel of the blade is still there, yet you don't contact their blade.

[epeefencer74]

Originally posted by epeemike81
You have said nothing I inherently disagree with. I didn't say you should NEVER use quarte, just that you should use it significantly less often. Think of it as a risk/benefit analysis. as you just admitted, the quarte has higher risk. since it has higher risk, the risk/benefit analysis will be "worth it" less often. Thus, it should be used rarely.

-m

As you say, it is a risk/benefit analysis, I guess what we've got here is a difference in opinion on the relative risks and derived benefits of quarte. Shall we agree that we disagree on this point?