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Thread: Flecheing confusion

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    Just Joined Mr. Wizard's Avatar
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    Flecheing confusion

    Does anybody know why flecheing is banned in sabre? and if its for right-of-way rules, why isnt it banned in foil as well?

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    Because saber was moving too quickly, and only in one direction. It looks much better now.
    "Life is like a wheel, where everyone steals, but when we rise, it's like Strawberry Fields."

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    Just Joined PatrickPFC's Avatar
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    I was under the impression that flecheing wasn't banned in saber, but crossing your back foot in front of your front foot. As long as the touch is scored before the crossing of the feet i thought you were ok, am i wrong?

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    Technically, yes. I don't see many people fleche without crossing their feet though.
    "Life is like a wheel, where everyone steals, but when we rise, it's like Strawberry Fields."

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    Quote Originally Posted by PatrickPFC View Post
    I was under the impression that flecheing wasn't banned in saber, but crossing your back foot in front of your front foot. As long as the touch is scored before the crossing of the feet i thought you were ok, am i wrong?
    actually i think you are right. this might be a mix-up of terms on my part, because i refer to whenever your back foot crosses over your front foot as flecheing, srry

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    Senior Member catwood1's Avatar
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    You cannot let the entirety of your back foot pass the entirety of your front foot in an offensive action.
    "Sir, didn't I parry"
    "You didn't take advantage of his blade enough, so no."

    (I guess i should have romanced it a bit more..."

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    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Wizard View Post
    Does anybody know why flecheing is banned in sabre? and if its for right-of-way rules, why isnt it banned in foil as well?
    Same reason crazy people have to wear straight-jackets and normal people don't.
    FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WON'T YOU BUY MY TACTICAL WHEEL!!!????

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    Quote Originally Posted by PatrickPFC View Post
    I was under the impression that flecheing wasn't banned in saber, but crossing your back foot in front of your front foot. As long as the touch is scored before the crossing of the feet i thought you were ok, am i wrong?
    Yes, you're wrong. See t.75(b)(3): "The flèche and any forward movement in which the rear foot completely passes the front foot is forbidden." Note that in a well-executed flèche, the back foot only crosses after the touch is landed. You are not allowed to score when the same action that lands the touch results in the crossover.

    You *can* do an action very similar to a flèche, but ensure that you land on the front foot and *then* cross in a second step. I'm hearing this footwork being called a "sabre flèche" these days.

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    Senior Member catwood1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldgar View Post
    Yes, you're wrong. See t.75(b)(3): "The flèche and any forward movement in which the rear foot completely passes the front foot is forbidden." Note that in a well-executed flèche, the back foot only crosses after the touch is landed. You are not allowed to score when the same action that lands the touch results in the crossover.

    You *can* do an action very similar to a flèche, but ensure that you land on the front foot and *then* cross in a second step. I'm hearing this footwork being called a "sabre flèche" these days.
    HURRAY FLUNGING!
    "Sir, didn't I parry"
    "You didn't take advantage of his blade enough, so no."

    (I guess i should have romanced it a bit more..."

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    That Guy Craig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Wizard View Post
    Does anybody know why flecheing is banned in sabre?
    Mainly due to the fact that with electric sabre it became a game of who ran forward first and there was almost no room for defense.

    Craig

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    Senior Member Nolano's Avatar
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    Ah yes. Muuuuuch different than now
    "When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in the flag and bearing a cross."

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    Senior Member RITFencing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldgar View Post
    Note that in a well-executed flèche, the back foot only crosses after the touch is landed.
    In general, I agree that this is the idea, however I think it is not so much the back foot landing as the end of the initial acceleration; it's just that in most fleches, that acceleration is done around the time the back foot lands.
    "If I were ever to challenge you to a duel, your best bet would be battle axes in a very dark basement." Misquoted from The Prisoner

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nolano View Post
    Ah yes. Muuuuuch different than now
    Yes




    ..

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    Posting Hound Purple Fencer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nolano View Post
    Ah yes. Muuuuuch different than now
    Disagree there....watch the 84 Olympics and you hear/see 2 things...

    1) One fencer running hell-bent-for-leather down the strip...the other retreating just as fast.

    and

    2) Peter Bouchard calling out "Halt....2 meters" when they reached the box so many times he started running out of ways to say it.

    The ability to fleche in sabre made it a train wreck...removing the crossover (and thus, the fleche) at LEAST forced people to TRY to slap steel.

    If the blades could be made afforadbly that could isolate the edge, you'd see more blade actions, especially in mens sabre at the top levels....the ladies actually fence more (because a lot of the older sabeurs in Athens were transplanted from foil...so they kept doing foil actions, and foil actions were needed to counter them...)
    Need fencing equipment? See me at H.O.M. Fencing Supply

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    I see fewer blade actions in WS and much more intense tempo games. I may not have a strong handle on the whole of sabre, but that's definitely the impression I get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldgar View Post
    Note that in a well-executed flèche, the back foot only crosses after the touch is landed. You are not allowed to score when the same action that lands the touch results in the crossover.
    Eh, not necessarily. I've heard that the touch should land as your back foot hits the ground... But not crossing. I think anyone trying to hit before their back foot passes their front will land up on their face. Even using the example of hitting as your back foot hits the ground, I don't necessarily believe in, as it requires quite a long first step, and I think that you'll have much better balance and control, if you use a series of short, quick steps in your flesche, requiring your feet to hit the ground slightly sooner than the first example I pointed out.
    "Life is like a wheel, where everyone steals, but when we rise, it's like Strawberry Fields."

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    Posting Hound Purple Fencer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KD5MDK View Post
    I see fewer blade actions in WS and much more intense tempo games. I may not have a strong handle on the whole of sabre, but that's definitely the impression I get.
    I think there are more in womens than mens, but the 2 may be getting closer...at least that's what I see.
    Need fencing equipment? See me at H.O.M. Fencing Supply

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    Senior Member edew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Fencer View Post
    Disagree there....watch the 84 Olympics and you hear/see 2 things...

    1) One fencer running hell-bent-for-leather down the strip...the other retreating just as fast.
    Except it wasn't hell-bent. It was a casual jog, which the opponent did a casual backpedal jog. It made the whole thing even more egregiously pathetic.
    and

    2) Peter Bouchard calling out "Halt....2 meters" when they reached the box so many times he started running out of ways to say it.

    The ability to fleche in sabre made it a train wreck...removing the crossover (and thus, the fleche) at LEAST forced people to TRY to slap steel.

    If the blades could be made afforadbly that could isolate the edge, you'd see more blade actions, especially in mens sabre at the top levels....the ladies actually fence more (because a lot of the older sabeurs in Athens were transplanted from foil...so they kept doing foil actions, and foil actions were needed to counter them...)
    =)=///

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    Video plz?

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    Quote Originally Posted by seven6ty View Post
    Eh, not necessarily. I've heard that the touch should land as your back foot hits the ground... But not crossing.
    More specifically, the rule book used to say that in a simple attack with flèche, to be considered correct, the touch must arrive no later than the back foot hitting the ground. But that is the bare minimum for "correctness". To be a *good* fleche, it ought to hit before the back foot crosses.

    I think anyone trying to hit before their back foot passes their front will land up on their face.
    I think you must not have seen any good fleches.

    Even using the example of hitting as your back foot hits the ground, I don't necessarily believe in, as it requires quite a long first step, and I think that you'll have much better balance and control, if you use a series of short, quick steps in your flesche, requiring your feet to hit the ground slightly sooner than the first example I pointed out.
    Now you've completely lost me, as a flèche doesn't consist of a "series" of steps at all. A flèche is a simple footwork action consisting of a launch and a landing. Everything else is either preparation or follow-through.

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