Flecheing confusion

[Gibbo]

Disagree there....watch the 84 Olympics and you hear/see 2 things...

1) One fencer running hell-bent-for-leather down the strip...the other retreating just as fast.

and

2) Peter Bouchard calling out "Halt....2 meters" when they reached the box so many times he started running out of ways to say it.

The ability to fleche in sabre made it a train wreck...removing the crossover (and thus, the fleche) at LEAST forced people to TRY to slap steel.

If the blades could be made afforadbly that could isolate the edge, you'd see more blade actions, especially in mens sabre at the top levels....the ladies actually fence more (because a lot of the older sabeurs in Athens were transplanted from foil...so they kept doing foil actions, and foil actions were needed to counter them...)

I disagree here. In the 84 olympics they were still fencing steam, and there was a lot more blade work involved than there is today, even with the outlaw of the crosstep factored in. It was far from a train wreck. I think the train wreck era was when sabre became electrified AND the fleche was still allowed, which brought in lots of flashing lights and random priority assignments after simultaneous actions where fencers simply ran at one another and met in the middle. The "papable" nature of the hit no longer mattered, the merest contact gave a light - something which I have a gripe with today. That minor gripe aside sabre is in a much better place now and is much more entertaining to watch and fence.

The issue of isolating the edge is very complex and probably wouldn't work, seeing as a flat hit will still register as soon as the blade hits the lame owing to the thinness of the blade. The issue for me is that the slightest contact gives a light, meaning that parries have to be clean and counter ripostes even cleaner (a good thing some would argue). If you watch the 84 Olympics you will see multiple parry-ripostes in a single phrase. That hardly ever happens now.

It is interesting to note that Peter Westbrook in his book, whilst welcoming the electrification of sabre, doesn't express an opinion on the outlawing of the fleche. He merely notes that one had to change tactics.

In this case, all things considered, I think change is good.

[fencerchica]

Curious, does anyone know if any kind of research has been done to resurrect the old "capteur" system using modern accelerometer IC's? It wouldn't help with isolating the edge of the sabre blade, but perhaps it could assist with the whipover that people once hoped the capteurs would fix.

[Pieter]

I was under the impression that the s2000 blade's stiffness largely reduced the whipover issue.

//Epee fencer, so could be entirely wrong here.

[Purple Fencer]

I was under the impression that the s2000 blade's stiffness largely reduced the whipover issue.

//Epee fencer, so could be entirely wrong here.

It minimized it, but given the bruise I got on my inner weapon arm last week, it ain't perfect!

Gibbo: I was going off a memory of seeing a vhs tape of 84 from a few years back...thanks for clarifying...I agree that the train wreck was after 88, but before the crossover was banned.

however, there's NO way someone can see the edge landing at that speed....nope....

[SJCFU#2]

Curious, does anyone know if any kind of research has been done to resurrect the old "capteur" system using modern accelerometer IC's? It wouldn't help with isolating the edge of the sabre blade, but perhaps it could assist with the whipover that people once hoped the capteurs would fix.

I was under the impression that the s2000 blade's stiffness largely reduced the whipover issue.

First off, captuers had nothing to do with preventing whipovers. In fact, any time the blade experienced a sharp enough acceleration to cause a whipover the captuer would probably register it as a touch. It was (and still is) the machine's job to prevent whipovers from registering as valid touches (of course how well they do this is open to debate).

Captuers were merely intended to ensure that touches would only register as valid if they landed with a certain amount of force behind them (much like the weight spring on an epee needing to be able to support 750 grams before registering a touch).

I doubt that anyone is seriously looking into building a new and improved captuer system these days, and even if they did I suspect they would have a hard time selling it. Too many people still remember how unreliable the old system was.

[foibles]

1) One fencer running hell-bent-for-leather down the strip...the other retreating just as fast.

and

2) Peter Bouchard calling out "Halt....2 meters" when they reached the box so many times he started running out of ways to say it.

Exactly right. The Pass Avant (crossover fwd), combined with the 2-meter warning, manifested in lots of running your opponent off the back of the strip. Then reseting at the 2-meter warning line... then running the other fencer off their end of the strip. (There was no penalty for being forced off the back of your strip).

You know that TV shot of an audience watching tennis? -Their heads and eyes rhythmically moving left and right? Kinda like that.

My guess is that the fleche was was changed only as collateral damage when outlawing the Pass Avant.

[alvin]

The issue of isolating the edge is very complex and probably wouldn't work, seeing as a flat hit will still register as soon as the blade hits the lame owing to the thinness of the blade. .... If you watch the 84 Olympics you will see multiple parry-ripostes in a single phrase. That hardly ever happens now.

With the plastics available today, I can't help but think that there would be some formula that would stand-up to the demands of fencing. So, to get around the thinness of the blade problem, make the blades wider, perhaps as wide as the real thing. Just run a strip of metal on the cutting edges. That would make for a very different game, of course. The larger weapon would slow things down, perhaps even to the point where the audience could follow the bladework.

What is it that makes saber so interesting? Is it the speed? No, foil is just as fast. Is it because by being allowed to make cuts it's closer to "real" sword fighting? Maybe. But since the blade is just a narrow strip of metal, it seems to me that all the finesse and technique that go with "real" sword fighting are gone. It seems to be all an attacker's game.

I don't fence saber, so I'm sure I just don't "get it". But I can't help but wonder if there wouldn't be some value in having fencing actually look a little bit like a clash of swords.

[prototoast]

But I can't help but wonder if there wouldn't be some value in having fencing actually look a little bit like a clash of swords.

Nope, none.

[catwood1]

What is it that makes saber so interesting? Is it the speed? No, foil is just as fast. Is it because by being allowed to make cuts it's closer to "real" sword fighting? Maybe. But since the blade is just a narrow strip of metal, it seems to me that all the finesse and technique that go with "real" sword fighting are gone. It seems to be all an attacker's game.

If its all an attackers game, why does anyone ever retreat, and why are attackers so cautious??

I don't fence saber, so I'm sure I just don't "get it". But I can't help but wonder if there wouldn't be some value in having fencing actually look a little bit like a clash of swords.

No, you're just really wrong on this one...

[NGV]

Nope, none.

I dunno... I'm definitely not one of those who thinks that fencing should look like Errol Flynn and Basil Rathbone, or that fencers should care at all about some supposed "historical" ideal.

All the same, when I watch the first touch in this clip of Boghicev vs. Rogers... I do think it would be kind of cool if that sort of action happened a little more often.

[whtouche]

All the same, when I watch the first touch in this clip of Boghicev vs. Rogers... I do think it would be kind of cool if that sort of action happened a little more often.

So you just want to see more failed attacks?

[prototoast]

All the same, when I watch the first touch in this clip of Boghicev vs. Rogers... I do think it would be kind of cool if that sort of action happened a little more often.

I wish my fencing looked that good too, but that's my own shortcoming, not the sport's.

[michaelheggen]

I dunno... I'm definitely not one of those who thinks that fencing should look like Errol Flynn and Basil Rathbone, or that fencers should care at all about some supposed "historical" ideal.

All the same, when I watch the first touch in this clip of Boghicev vs. Rogers... I do think it would be kind of cool if that sort of action happened a little more often.

That first period of combat was really nice—almost elegant. Thanks for the link to the clip.

As to why to fence sabre: hitting people over the head with a piece of steel! It's so much cheaper than therapy....

Not sure how we got here from discussions of flèche, though....