new to fencing - tactical confusion

[Mr. Wizard]

hello, I am new to fencing, and i started this year in sabre, though at various points in the year i have tried foil/epee. most of the places i go to say that epee is the most strategic and sabre is the most fast-paced, idiotic one. but when i look at the weapons, it doesnt really make sense to me. epee seems like it would quickly degrade into just a poking fight. i mean, there aren't really any rules to it. and sabre has a bunch of rules, plus we can hit w/ any part of the blade, and have a pretty big target area, so it would seem to me that sabre would be much more tactical. fast-paced, but tactical. and then i just dont really get foil. i understand its use as a training weapon, but its so limited and restricting. and i really hate how they stop the bout for off-targets. if anyone can clarify these issues for me, please do, and feel free to bring up any topics you would like in this thread

[noodle]

try watching some of the high level bouts on youtube. that might clear up some things.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wizard

hello, I am new to fencing, and i started this year in sabre, though at various points in the year i have tried foil/epee. most of the places i go to say that epee is the most strategic and sabre is the most fast-paced, idiotic one. but when i look at the weapons, it doesnt really make sense to me. epee seems like it would quickly degrade into just a poking fight. i mean, there aren't really any rules to it.

Epee can be the great equalizer....but there's a ton of strategy in it, and the other weapons as well....it's all about creating opportunities and taking advantage of them...in all weapons. The only differances are those that are weapon-specific.

[Mr. Wizard]

Originally Posted by ApAperture

try this, tape a small portion of electrical tape(ONLY as big as your thumbnail) onto a wall. Stand from lunge distance and try to hit that tape with your point, consecutively, no misses, for a hundred times. If you miss even by a little, go back to one; then try to do it until you get a hundred.

For me anyways, Epee and Foil have a little bit more control than Sabre. I might be wrong, but there's no such thing as point control for Sabre.

(hopefully i did that quote thing right) i definitly agree that it is hard and takes alot of practice to get good point control, which is essential for foil/epee (though i personally try to incorporate some of it into sabre, especially for wrist hits) the question wasn't about which weapon is harder or takes more practice. im asking why epee is seen as the most tactical. i mean, the target area is so huge, even if the opponent beats your blade out of tthe way, the odds of you not hitting them somewhere seems slim to me

[rory]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wizard

im asking why epee is seen as the most tactical. i mean, the target area is so huge, even if the opponent beats your blade out of tthe way, the odds of you not hitting them somewhere seems slim to me

Yeah, but the odds of you getting your point anywhere near a good epeeist are much lower. It's all about control of distance and timing.

Seriously - follow the advice above and watch good fencing on Youtube. World Cup epee videos will make it clearer to you.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wizard

(hopefully i did that quote thing right) i definitly agree that it is hard and takes alot of practice to get good point control, which is essential for foil/epee (though i personally try to incorporate some of it into sabre, especially for wrist hits) the question wasn't about which weapon is harder or takes more practice. im asking why epee is seen as the most tactical. i mean, the target area is so huge, even if the opponent beats your blade out of tthe way, the odds of you not hitting them somewhere seems slim to me

If that were true, I'd've been a lot better epeeist than I was. By your logic, sabre should be easy to score in because you're just swinging steel (when, in contrast, a sabre blade is VERY sensitive to hand position....it's easy to miss if you just fling it out there).

Good fencing -- in ANY weapon -- is not only about putting the blade/point on target, it's about maneuvering your opponent into a position to MAKE that hit, to take advantage of any opening you see and jumping on it immediately, to create an opening to go for.

If I'm againt you in sabre and I see your weapon arm drift inside, I'll be taking a shot at your arm from the outside real fast.

An epeeist who's good at hand and/or foot shots isn't just sticking the blade out and hoping...it takes a LOT of skill to not only hit that target, but not get hit.

[Lady Quindecim]

(where is that tactical wheel?)
These people saying to watch some youtube are not just .. whatever. Watching other beginners / less experienced fencers that have not developed good control (of didstance, timeing and technique, not just point control) makes it hard to see the beauty of the sport in its complexity.

And that goes for any weapon.

[Superscribe]

What was the reason behind your post? Is there a weapon that you think you want to do in the future, but are afraid to pursue because it looks awful at low levels?

[ApAperture]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wizard

and then i just dont really get foil. i understand its use as a training weapon, but its so limited and restricting. and i really hate how they stop the bout for off-targets.

my bad for getting confused; that part just doesn't sound like a tactical question/comment to me.

[TBean]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wizard

i mean, the target area is so huge, even if the opponent beats your blade out of tthe way, the odds of you not hitting them somewhere seems slim to me

You think that an experienced epee fencer doesn't KNOW that?!? As much as my whole body is target, so it my opponents. As a result of the large target area epeeists tend not to rush into initial attacks. We are not out there randomly poking at people, we are out there setting up the correct moment to make a successful attack.

Tactically speaking high level epee does not fence in the first intention a whole lot - it is the second, third or even fourth action that they are looking to make their attack on. So this results in a lot of strategy and tactics being used to lead your opponent through a series of actions and responses to get the desired time and distance to make your attack.

How experienced are the other people you are fencing with? That seems to be a part of your problem, that you are not getting to interact with fencers who have some years on you. When you get to do that, you will quickly come to learn the difference between what you are describing as epee fencing and what epee really fencers do on the strip. This holds true for all the weapons.

[foibles]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wizard

1. epee seems like it would quickly degrade into just a poking fight. 2. i mean, there aren't really any rules to it. 3. foil=a training weapon, 4. but its so limited and restricting. and 5. i really hate how they stop the bout for off-targets.

1. Epee ~can~ degrade into a poking fight as can foil. But the better you get, the less often this happens.

2. Epee "rules" are hidden. The rules are the things you must do in order to create situations that allow you to hit your opponent while disallowing them to hit you at any given moment. At higher levels, it takes a pretty sophisticated level of tactics, strategy and understanding of human nature to consistently pull that kind of thing off. Seriously.

3. Contemporary foil is not merely a training wep. It stands on its own. Also, many beginners start on different weps these days having never held a foil.

4. Foil rules seem restricting until you wrap your head around them. Then they aren't restricting so much as an interesting and integral part of the game. It can be fun tricking your opponent into breaking the rules to earn your touches. (Tricking them into counter-attacks for example).

5. Yeah. Off-target lights can be pretty annoying at times.

Sounds like you're really enjoying sabre. Stick with it! But remember that all the weps can be pretty amazing in their own ways.

[Mr. Wizard]

Originally Posted by foibles

Sounds like you're really enjoying sabre. Stick with it! But remember that all the weps can be pretty amazing in their own ways.

Thx, i was waiting for someone to say something like that (and thank you for anyone else that said something similar)

the whole point of this post was just to see what others think of the different weapons, because im getting really tired of people telling me that sabre is for idiots and epee is all strategy. i read articles on genetic anomalies and developing artificial intelligence; im not an idiot. and ive seen enough epee fencers at my school either do stupid stuff, or just wait there for almost 3 minutes w/o doing anything. i think sabre has a lot of strategy, and so does foil/epee. they are each different, and each are difficult in their own way.

again, thank you all for your posts. i was just trying to see how many people thought sabre was just "run, run, run, run, slash"...
...and if you do, you are an idiot

[Superscribe]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wizard

the whole point of this post was just to see what others think of the different weapons, because im getting really tired of people telling me that sabre is for idiots and epee is all strategy. i read articles on genetic anomalies and developing artificial intelligence; im not an idiot. and ive seen enough epee fencers at my school either do stupid stuff, or just wait there for almost 3 minutes w/o doing anything. i think sabre has a lot of strategy, and so does foil/epee. they are each different, and each are difficult in their own way.

Aha! So we get to the crux of the matter. I'm so good.

You need to have some self confidence and the willingness to fence whatever weapon makes you happy. There are tremendous amounts of tactics in every weapon. Just different tactics. I would suspect the people you argue with don't even have a good grasp of what tactics are.

What is this? High school fencing? Shake it off, work hard at what you like, and then win.

[TBean]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wizard

i read articles on genetic anomalies and developing artificial intelligence; im not an idiot.

Yet you don't seem to know what the shift key is for on your computer. Makes one wonder.

You're welcome, Inq.

[ApAperture]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wizard

again, thank you all for your posts. i was just trying to see how many people thought sabre was just "run, run, run, run, slash"...
...and if you do, you are an idiot

I think you do belong in sabre. Stick with it then.

Btw, if you already knew that about sabre, you shouldn't need the forums to validate it for you.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wizard

again, thank you all for your posts. i was just trying to see how many people thought sabre was just "run, run, run, run, slash"...
...and if you do, you are an idiot

says the person who calls epee a poking fight and foil limiting and restricting.

[Mr. Wizard]

Originally Posted by noodle

says the person who calls epee a poking fight and foil limiting and restricting.

i dont think that about them. some of my best friends fence foil/epee, and theyve told me all about how it really is. in fact im planning on doing foil as my second weapon once i get my E in sabre (so i can get good point control)

i had to make sure i came off as ignorant to the other weapons, to test your reactions and what you guys think of the different weapons

thx again everyone!

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wizard

i dont think that about them. some of my best friends fence foil/epee, and theyve told me all about how it really is. in fact im planning on doing foil as my second weapon once i get my E in sabre (so i can get good point control)

i had to make sure i came off as ignorant to the other weapons, to test your reactions and what you guys think of the different weapons

thx again everyone!

so, you're an internet troll? sweet, welcome to the forums, we need more of those.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by TBean

Yet you don't seem to know what the shift key is for on your computer. Makes one wonder.

You're welcome, Inq.

Thank you.

Maybe he hasn't seen my signature yet...

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Thank you.

Maybe he hasn't seen my signature yet...

so, i'll take this into an intelligent discourse.

i don't use my shift key because i discovered that i type about 15% faster without it, and it greatly reduces the RSI effects i feel. your mileage may vary, but as someone who types a LOT across the day, i'll skip caps where possible.