Brutality

[sanadika]

I need some advice as to what to do as a referee when you have a fencer that is known to you and has a style of fencing that is summed up as bullying on the strip. They use their mere size to intimidate which is fine thats part of the game but when they are faced with a challenging opponent will go for what I consider cheap shots such as "flicking" so hard and on parts of the body like the weapon hand that it disables the opponent sometimes even giving them a dead arm. Or worse yet crotch shots but mostly its severe wacks to the weapon hand to disable the opponent. How do you manage that when you are reffing? If you didnt know the history of the fencer would that be harder to call? Is there a rule for brutality and is it subjective?

[Warrior Princess]

How do you know that they're intentionally trying to disable their opponent? The rule is INTENTIONAL brutality. Is this foil or epee (I discount saber as you mentioned flicks)? If this is epee, it could just be what works against the opponent. If it's foil, they could just be missing.

[ivlobane]

I need some advice as to what to do as a referee when you have a fencer that is known to you and has a style of fencing that is summed up as bullying on the strip. They use their mere size to intimidate which is fine thats part of the game but when they are faced with a challenging opponent will go for what I consider cheap shots such as "flicking" so hard and on parts of the body like the weapon hand that it disables the opponent sometimes even giving them a dead arm. Or worse yet crotch shots but mostly its severe wacks to the weapon hand to disable the opponent. How do you manage that when you are reffing? If you didnt know the history of the fencer would that be harder to call? Is there a rule for brutality and is it subjective?

If it is an deliberate attempt to injure, I would definitely card this progressively. Bad sportsmanship and that is subjective so it's the ref's call. I had a "client" like that. He would stab the hell out of you after the light. Beat the blade and hand anytime he could. After the light. The result was that people began to refuse to fence him in the club and I've never seen him at tournaments.

Epee can be brutal enough without having to do it consciously. Even the most brutal actions are never designed to injure anyone.

Any experienced epeeist should be able to deal with this, as deliberate attempts to injure the hand will expose the idiot trying to do it. This seems like someone is trying to bully a kid or something, so you have to put a stop to it. Situations like this kill love for the sport.

[oiuyt]

Deliberate brutality is a group IV offense and requires intent.

Dangerous, violent, or vindictive action are group II offenses. Being dangerous or violent does not require intent.

-B

[Warrior Princess]

Deliberate brutality is a group IV offense and requires intent.

Dangerous, violent, or vindictive action are group II offenses. Being dangerous or violent does not require intent.

-B

Oops. That's why I failed the exam ().... Usually I'm right though... ::embarased::

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I need some advice as to what to do as a referee when you have a fencer that is known to you and has a style of fencing that is summed up as bullying on the strip. They use their mere size to intimidate which is fine thats part of the game but when they are faced with a challenging opponent will go for what I consider cheap shots such as "flicking" so hard and on parts of the body like the weapon hand that it disables the opponent sometimes even giving them a dead arm. Or worse yet crotch shots but mostly its severe wacks to the weapon hand to disable the opponent. How do you manage that when you are reffing? If you didnt know the history of the fencer would that be harder to call? Is there a rule for brutality and is it subjective?

There are quite a few rules that can be related to brutality, depending on the understanding, opinions, and mood of the director. The rules are somewhat vague as to allow the ref to give appropriate cards for actions, but that of course means that it's somewhat objective.

Using size to intimidate is not brutality. Directing an appropriately timed and reasonably light hit to a sensitive area of target area is not brutality (even if that spot is the mask or groin). Missing a flick by accident is often not brutal. However, an action that leaves a bruise (on someone that doesn't bruise easily) for more than a month is brutal, even if the individual did not mean it.

Depending on the scenario and people involved, a stern look may be all that's necessary to change the behavior (think youth fencers at practice getting a mild scolding from a coach for behavior which is poor, but not quite yet dangerous), but in other scenarios, an immediate black card is the only appropriate response (unless you're also planning on calling the cops).

If you're wincing as you watch the hit, that's a good indication that a card ought to come into play.

If this individual has never been talked to about the behavior that is being interpreted as brutal, I would assume (perhaps incorrectly) that they were unaware, and would usually assume there was no intent, and card as such.

If you personally have talked to the fencer about the behavior that is being interpreted as brutal, and you have observed the fencer trying to be MORE brutal, then things start to get tricky. You are looking for it more than an fully unbiased ref, and you will see intent even if none exists (because everyone hits a bit too hard sometimes). The same happens when one has a reputation for going off the strip-- refs who are familiar with the individual watch for it more.

The ethics of this are interesting, and I'll have to think about it......

[FencingJunkie]

Wha I was expecting some mortal kombat references...I'm outta here

[edew]

One person related this following anecdote:

Female epeeists. Older, wiser, more sure fencer against young, up and coming peppy gal. Peppy gals get a touch and screams like she won the powerball lottery. Older one lifts masks stares the young'un down, puts mask back on. On "fence" comes up the purty young thing, powers the blade up the chest, underneath the mask, lifts it off the face, has point right under the chin, takes off masks and says, "..." (forgot what she said, make anything you think would work right here).

Another one: european fencers, foil. Coach tells fencer to hit opponent's knee. Does so, but enough to permanently disable the fencer (like cracked the knee cap or something).

Another one: epee. Lots of fleches by fencer Y(ounger) which included corps-a-corps, irritating fencer X(-olympian). Next fleche, X hip checks Y onto the floor. "Oops, sorry, let me help you up."

Part of the game, buddy.

[telkanuru]

Another one: european fencers, foil. Coach tells fencer to hit opponent's knee. Does so, but enough to permanently disable the fencer (like cracked the knee cap or something).

Sweep the leg?

[wwalkerjr]

Part of the game, buddy.

I don't know if this fits the thread, but when I fenced in the 1970s and 1980s, epee fencers "sent messages" to fleche artists who ran into opponents by delivering strong stop thrusts to the bib or mask. The object of the counterattack was not to score a touch but to remind the offender to fence under control. Likewise, foil fencers would remind people to fence under control with the side of the blade off target after a counter 6.

I am delighted that I don't see this kind of "conversation" since I returned to fencing last year.

[Cookeit]

I'm taking a martial arts class, and we have learned "gunting", which is essentially hitting the other persons bicep in such a way to make them lose all power and ability to hold it up.

And it is perfectly allowed...

[edew]

Isn't that actually the basic tactic of boxing? Hit the ribs so that the person can't breathe, hit the arms until they're so constricted that they can't be extended. But that's a different concept to fencing, where hard hits are not needed or used for winning in the long run.

[Superscribe]

A coach I worked with came from east Europe. On night, after speculating on his origins, I was goofing off and I said, "coach, teach me some dirty shots I can do in fencing." He said, "why?" I jokingly replied, "well in case somebody tries a cheap shot on me in a tournament. I mean, I don't want to pushed around." He said, "if somebody dirty hit you, then apologize." I was bemused. "why do apologize if they are the one who-" "Because if you ready to apologize people don't want to hit you. If you not ready to apologize, people always want to hit you. And they will always be bigger than you"

This Coach was in the military for a while as well.

Interesting way of thinking about it.

[telkanuru]

Plus there are plenty of dirty tricks you can pull without hurting your opponent.

[RITFencing]

Sweep the leg?

No mercy! Do you have a problem with that?

[Greg]

Have you read Jeff Bukantz's book "Closing the Distance". He repeatedly makes references to his intentional brutality on the strip including elbows to the mask during infighting and a hip check into a fleching opponent. No one seemed to complain. All part of the game I guess.

[Redblade]

No mercy! Do you have a problem with that?

...
No, sensei.

[AndrewH]

Have you read Jeff Bukantz's book "Closing the Distance". He repeatedly makes references to his intentional brutality on the strip including elbows to the mask during infighting and a hip check into a fleching opponent. No one seemed to complain. All part of the game I guess.

Everything's legal if the ref doesn't see it.

[tchwojko]

Everything's legal if the ref doesn't see it.

If the ref sees it, it could be brutality. If the ref doesn't see it, it's gamesmanship.

Yes, it's part of the game, because some set of opponents do that. You have to figure out how to deal with those actions (either defending against them or using them). I generally stick to non-contact gamesmanship because the risk is lower and the reward is about the same for many of the opponents I tend to face.

[Mauler]

He said, "if somebody dirty hit you, then apologize." I was bemused. "why do apologize if they are the one who-" "Because if you ready to apologize people don't want to hit you. If you not ready to apologize, people always want to hit you. And they will always be bigger than you"

If it's who I think it is... Take his every word as a gospel. He knows what happens when people stop fencing and start fighting (literally, for life).

"I learned how to win that day."

Open up a bottle of GOOD vodka and ask him about the day.