I'm a team captain on a collegiate team, 30-40+ fencers 3weapons slightly over half female, fairly decent.
My problem is that at practice I've noticed people don't try very hard in bouts except the few days before and the few days after tourneys. I'm not saying they slack off completely, the edge just fades away. Two questions now.
1: What are some good, easily handled methods, yall have seen that worked to stimulate or simulate that edge at practice? For any age, I firmly believe college kids are really just little kids pretending so I'm not concerned if the program was for little kids or geezers.
2:What I'm planning on trying is a system where each one of my Men's Foilists gets a bin with say 50 colored stones in it. Everytime the beat someone they took a stone from the losers bin and put it in the winners. End of each week person with the heaviest bin wins a silver star on their bin, end of the month the person with the heavist bin wins a gold star. Reset every month probably. We're all fairly close (for my MF,) I would say the highest practice win percentage is 60 and the lowest is probably 40, and its not always the same people. I'm worried that this will take some of the fun out of practice and replace it with whining as well as destroying the closeness of the squad. Thoughts?
__________________
Non sub homine sed sub deo et lege
-Bracton
England expects that every man will do his duty
-Lord Nelson
If you have the pistes you could consider a nice bit of 'bout to 5, winner stays on'. If it's the usual suspects you could start adding a handicap after the 2nd bout, i.e. each succesful win means a 1 touch handicap.
Although I haven't tried this, it's been recommended; run a mini-tournament through one round of poules and into DEs with the poules starting at 4-4 and DEs 14-14.
Same mini-tournament or winner stays on format with fencers beginning at close-quarters, blades engaged. One fencer has priority, enguarde, ready, play.
Again with one fencer starting with their front foot on the backline.
Fence to 5 from the en-guarde lines, both fencers prepare-hit. No parries/countertime allowed.
And many variations thereof. Training can be different
I know where you are coming from in that getting into a relaxed routine and messing around can take the edge off a fencer. If it's a social club or that's where people's expectations are, consider double-checking interest before announcing this sort of thing and for goodness sake don't force people into it. Just say you are going to do it and see who else wants to play. The results should speak for themselves in time.
Its very hard (read: impossible) to motivate kids who don't want to be motivated. Allen's questions are very good ones, and ones you must answer before going on.
When I'm coaching at my college, I often don't force them to be overly motivated. However, I show clear preferential treatment for people who work harder. If you work hard in footwork, I'll give you a lesson that day, and you'll probably spend more time fencing electric than the others. If you're messing around, I'm not going to give you a lesson.
However, if you'd like a very shallow answer, here it is: Team competitions. Team compitions often can drive fencers to work hard in practice, because they feel like if they suck, they're letting down a whole team, not just themselves.* Doesn't work for everyone, but it does tend to help IMHO.
*This will be more true for fencers who started fencing on a team rather than at a USFA club.
__________________
"Sir, didn't I parry"
"You didn't take advantage of his blade enough, so no."
Do you know what behavior you want out of them? And why you want it? You say they are "fairly decent". What does that mean?
Are they "not trying" or are they "practicing" (the two can often be confused)?
I want them to think about their performance more, be more introspective in the following way "When I do this I win bouts/score more touches versus when I do this I lost bout/touches" For me, I need to feel like I gave the bout my all before I can really sit and reflect on it, so by putting some incentive on the bouts I figured people would be more inclined to try. Why? Well if you're not actively thinking about why and how you win/lose you're probably not getting better and the harder people push in the bouts the harder it'll be for one person to slack off under the radar, their lack of perforamance will show faster.
Fairly decent means we beat 70+% of the schools we fence.
I would accuse them of not trying, I've talked it over in a group session and individually, and the response has been trouble staying motivated to try hard for every touch.
We've done the competition thing in the past, but right now I might only have 3 MF'ists on any given night so that kindof precludes team comps.
I'm posing these same questions on wednesday to our sports pyschologists, we're lucky enough to have convinced two people in grad programs for sport psych to come by 1-2 nights a week.
Thanks all
Last edited by LordShout; 02-04-2009 at 03:58 AM..
There are a few things I do to try and keep the fencers motivated and hard working, I have similar problems so I can't say if they're highly effective, but just a few ideas to throw around.
1st, insight rivalries- if you have a few fencers around the same level make sure they know it, keep it a fun rivalry but they'll compete harder against that person in particular because they don't want to fall behind.
2nd, inner club competitions- about once a month have an in club competition, this one is pretty straight forward.
3rd, never ending tryouts- because I am captain of a club team the components of the team vary from competition to competition. That is because club members are allowed to "challenge in" for a spot on the team at any time as long as it is more than 2 weeks before a team comp. This makes the club work harder because they constantly have a chance of getting on the team and the current team members don't want to appear to be the wear member of the herd for fear of being challenged and picked off.
Insert some competition into the drills. Create multiple leaderboards for different drills, and ways people can accumulate "points." If you diversify the categories, you can keep more people involved. While simply trying harder to win practice bouts may not be particularly beneficial to your fencing, trying to "win parries" or "win counterattacks" or "win point-in-line" can keep people focused on their drills, and develop the competitive spirit necessary to win.
You claim to be in a position of leadership (team captain); however, if you had earned that position, then you wouldn't be asking this question on this forum.
Don't make the mistake of confusing possession of title, or vacuum assisted ascendency with the real deal.
What I'm saying is that your post indicates that you are Team Captain in name only. Your club has a culture with which you are at odds. Your demonstrated lack of ability and insight accurately reflects your level of maturity and experience.
Good luck.
__________________ Quit touchin' me, ya freak
F.Net Rule #1: E. L. E. (everybody love everybody)
You claim to be in a position of leadership (team captain); however, if you had earned that position, then you wouldn't be asking this question on this forum.
Don't make the mistake of confusing possession of title, or vacuum assisted ascendency with the real deal.
What I'm saying is that your post indicates that you are Team Captain in name only. Your club has a culture with which you are at odds. Your demonstrated lack of ability and insight accurately reflects your level of maturity and experience.
Good luck.
There's no need to go be a ***** to the guy!
Whether he is the guy in charge because he is the best fencing on the club, they voted him in, everybody else said "not me," or whether he started the club. It doesn't really matter, if he is the guy in charge, then he is the guy in charge. Questioning his maturity isn't going to help anything.
Mr. Epee, how exactly would you "earn" the position of team captain? Also, how would "earning" that position prove that he knows everything, and doesn't need to ever ask questions again.
Lord shout, if you beat 70% of the clubs you fence, try and find some harder competition. Get some meets with varsity schools. The added strength of competition might show your students that they need to do more than train for the week before an event.
__________________
"Sir, didn't I parry"
"You didn't take advantage of his blade enough, so no."
You claim to be in a position of leadership (team captain); however, if you had earned that position, then you wouldn't be asking this question on this forum.
Don't make the mistake of confusing possession of title, or vacuum assisted ascendency with the real deal.
What I'm saying is that your post indicates that you are Team Captain in name only. Your club has a culture with which you are at odds. Your demonstrated lack of ability and insight accurately reflects your level of maturity and experience.
Good luck.
This sentiment displays a complete lack of understanding of the way the club operates. I fence in the same club- for the past several years, we've operated of our own accord, without the guidance of head or even assistant coaches. The officers, team, and squad captains take the responsibility of training and preparing our fencers on our shoulders, with occasional assistance from alumni or local coaches. Our captains are elected on the basis of their experience within the club- with, as a university club team with zero university support and no head coach, is extremely difficult to do when we juggle studies with fencing.
This situation is not without its faults- we absolutely don't know everything, nor do we have the ability to devote all of our time to learning how to coach when we should be studying and taking tests. Those of us who are elected to the positions we hold do so because we care about the club and the fencers- he's here, like I have been in the past, seeking advice on how to improve his ability as a leader and instructor.
It's not helpful for you to make assumptions about the way our club is run when you have no prior experience with our situation. Perhaps it would behoove you to ask questions about the way we do things before casting aspersions on the ability of our volunteer, elected officers and leaders. At the very least, it would be more polite.
__________________ The time which we have at our disposal every day is elastic; the passions that we feel expand it, those that we inspire contract it; and habit fills up what remains.
-Proust
I'm a team captain on a collegiate team, 30-40+ fencers 3weapons slightly over half female, fairly decent.
My problem is that at practice I've noticed people don't try very hard in bouts except the few days before and the few days after tourneys. I'm not saying they slack off completely, the edge just fades away. Two questions now.
1: What are some good, easily handled methods, yall have seen that worked to stimulate or simulate that edge at practice? For any age, I firmly believe college kids are really just little kids pretending so I'm not concerned if the program was for little kids or geezers.
2:What I'm planning on trying is a system where each one of my Men's Foilists gets a bin with say 50 colored stones in it. Everytime the beat someone they took a stone from the losers bin and put it in the winners. End of each week person with the heaviest bin wins a silver star on their bin, end of the month the person with the heavist bin wins a gold star. Reset every month probably. We're all fairly close (for my MF,) I would say the highest practice win percentage is 60 and the lowest is probably 40, and its not always the same people. I'm worried that this will take some of the fun out of practice and replace it with whining as well as destroying the closeness of the squad. Thoughts?
I think the word you're looking for is intensity. You want them to practice with intensity.
In practice, I am not trying to get touches. I'm not trying to win. I'm not keeping track either. I'm working on techniques, tactics, and letting my opponent do the same. In a perfect world, I would bring the same intensity as I do to competition, but I absolutely still wouldn't be trying to win, and I will still "lose" to people I would normally skunk.
Turn it into a competition, and my objectives change. I will no longer work on getting better, but instead on doing what is necessary to win. That's a very good way to not get any better.
A sports psychologist is not what you need. You need a coach. I don't mean you need someone who has technical knowledge that you don't (everyone needs that). You need someone in a leadership position to take charge and motivate people.
It's not hard. "Get lower" "You're not going to hit like that" "What are you doing? Quit ****ing around" Express your desire to have them do what you want. Communicate. This is going to take time away from your fencing, and people might not like it.
And here's the kicker. I have disagreed above with your basic idea of what is wrong here. I know if someone came in and insisted that I actively compete every moment I was on strip I would tell him to **** himself. If you're going to force people into step with you, you'd better be sure you're on beat as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroutesshin
This sentiment displays a complete lack of understanding of the way the club operates. I fence in the same club- for the past several years, we've operated of our own accord, without the guidance of head or even assistant coaches. The officers, team, and squad captains take the responsibility of training and preparing our fencers on our shoulders, with occasional assistance from alumni or local coaches. Our captains are elected on the basis of their experience within the club- with, as a university club team with zero university support and no head coach, is extremely difficult to do when we juggle studies with fencing.
This situation is not without its faults- we absolutely don't know everything, nor do we have the ability to devote all of our time to learning how to coach when we should be studying and taking tests. Those of us who are elected to the positions we hold do so because we care about the club and the fencers- he's here, like I have been in the past, seeking advice on how to improve his ability as a leader and instructor.
It's not helpful for you to make assumptions about the way our club is run when you have no prior experience with our situation. Perhaps it would behoove you to ask questions about the way we do things before casting aspersions on the ability of our volunteer, elected officers and leaders. At the very least, it would be more polite.
Life is hard, but you can trust Mr Epee to give it to you straight.
Mr. Epee is completely right. I think the key line is "Your club has a culture with which you are at odds."
Your post implies that you're trying to make people do things. This is impossible. You have two options: you can provide others with opportunities, or you can do something yourself.
These are the two tools you have to meet your goals, whether they are for your squad, your team, yourself, or simply the atmosphere of the club.
Don't interpret Mr. Epee's post as an attack. It is easily the most important advice I've seen given on this forum.
We have a challenge ladder at our club to bring more of a competition feel to our club's practice. A fencer can move up the ladder by winning challenge bouts against fencers one or two spots above them. It definately brings me out of practice mode when I am challenged for my number 3 spot on the ladder, especially now that I have some tough fencers just below me. Also the number of times you defend your position on the ladder is recorded. There is no reward for being number one, other then just getting to be number one. Run a pool to set the initial seeding on the ladder for each weapon.
We have a challenge ladder at our club to bring more of a competition feel to our club's practice. A fencer can move up the ladder by winning challenge bouts against fencers one or two spots above them. It definately brings me out of practice mode when I am challenged for my number 3 spot on the ladder, especially now that I have some tough fencers just below me. Also the number of times you defend your position on the ladder is recorded. There is no reward for being number one, other then just getting to be number one. Run a pool to set the initial seeding on the ladder for each weapon.
Channelling Jason here for a second, what are you trying to accomplish by doing this? What makes you think that's beneficial? Or relevant?
-B
__________________
"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"
Channelling Jason here for a second, what are you trying to accomplish by doing this? What makes you think that's beneficial? Or relevant?
-B
heh? Your asking why stimulating competition in practice is beneficial/relevant?
This specific form of training allows one to prepare for the feel of a real competition. Learning how to force yourself to focus and fence with intensity on demand, not a skill everyone has. This form of practice is probably for a fencer that doesnt get the opportunity to compete in tournaments very often to help keep them mentally sharp. Fencers that DO have the opportunity to fence often in smaller not so important tournaments often will probably not need this form of training at practice. The number of tournaments they do will keep them sharp.
Rereading the orginal post, how are your fencers placing at tournaments? Are your fencer's able to focus and fence their best at tournaments? If they are sharp and fencing well, this may not be needed. If they are not fencing up to their potental, this form of training may help them learn to turn it up at tournaments.
I don't want to put words in Brad's mouth, but I suspect he's fairly cognizant of the value of fencing 'competitive' bouts in practice and is not questioning the goal, but the implementation.
RFC tried challenge ladders (or ladder tournaments on Fridays) for a while. Nobody really liked it, and that's in a group of pretty highly-motivated athletes.
NWFC does something different; on Wednesdays, we do interval bouting. Sebastien comes up with a bunch of bout-then-rest scenarios totalling about 1.5 hours, and then the fencers crank through them.
(Ex:
4 min warmup.
4 min running clock, 8 touches.
1 min running clock, 1 touch -- loser does 15 pushups.
2 mins to switch partners.)
Again, we're dealing with a bunch of highly-motivated folks. But they like the structure...we tweak work times, rest times, bout formats, and incentives to win depending on what we're trying to emphasize. You could do the same thing with a more recreational group.
Linear Mode
