Stimulating Competition

[erooMynohtnA]

Our webmasters are working on the website constantly; you should have seen it before they got hold. Terrifying. In re: bout reporting; we just switched over to a newer, more powerful server and they're still trying to get an interface to the results database put together. The current page is just a placeholder; most of our tournament results are in the drawer of a file cabinet in our armory.

I think your website is really nice. I like it.

Well, tchyeah. I'm drawing a comparison between varsity/university sports and club sports here,

It's not like varsity people don't have drive. That's how they got there. Yes, they're going to do better, because they have coaching, money, facilities, and whatever else, but they were already going to do better anyway.

They put in a lot more time and work than club sports do.

I'm not sure I understand your first comment, but the heart of the OP is that people are fencing differently in practice and competition, different forms and different mindsets. By practice I mean practice bouting with boxes, directors, cards, etc- not drills and footwork. One of our coaches emeriti, who studied under Charlie Schmitter, always said the best practice for fencing is fencing, which is one of the ways we approach our lack of formal coaching staff.

My coach also studied under Schmitter, and he thinks that's stupid. I also think that's stupid completely independent of anything to do with Maestro Schmitter.

Erin is one of our freshmen fencers, although if you looked at our site and saw the bios you probably knew that already.

No big deal. Not everyone on a club team is a superstar. Who should we be looking at?

[kuroutesshin]

I think your website is really nice. I like it.

Thank you! We're always on the two webbies to update everything and keep it nice; I don't know what we're going to do when they graduate at the end of the year.

It's not like varsity people don't have drive. That's how they got there. Yes, they're going to do better, because they have coaching, money, facilities, and whatever else, but they were already going to do better anyway.

They put in a lot more time and work than club sports do.

Oh, I'm absolutely not denying the effort those athletes put in. But the dynamics are different, there's no denying that.

My coach also studied under Schmitter, and he thinks that's stupid. I also think that's stupid completely independent of anything to do with Maestro Schmitter.

By fencing I don't mean straight competition necessarily; more of a pedagogic light bouting. So, I suppose fencing with a drilling component.

No big deal. Not everyone on a club team is a superstar. Who should we be looking at?

My comment was directed slightly to MrEpee's quiet sarcasm but to be honest, I haven't seen the rest of the videos, nor do I know when they're going to be updated- hopefully soon- so I can't really tell you which fencers to look at, and I would not go so far as to suggest myself. Our best fencer actually graduated this past year, so you won't be seeing videos of him, ever!

The bottom line is still the original question in the OP, though. Without a strong coaching backbone, how do we succeed in certain areas?

EDIT: I spoke too soon; the website has been updated as of... last night, I think!

[Mr Epee]

Erin is one of our freshmen fencers, although if you looked at our site and saw the bios you probably knew that already.

I don't know who Erin is, but I can assure you I didn't watch any videos of her fencing.

Here's why I know this.

I find it extremely difficult to judge talent and ability in women's fencing; particularly at the beginning and intermediate levels. In my experience, there are many girls who appear to be very good fencers on the surface, but achieve mediocre results at best. On the other hand, I've seen quite a few girls fencing who possessed a decidedly unconventional, ultimately unaesthetic approach to the sport, and yet they achieved quite good results.

I blame my lack of exposure to them, and a lack of a sufficiently developed and competitive talent pool.

Fortunately, that said, things tend to shake themselves out at the elite levels, and it's a whole lot easier to see what the heck is happening... and by this I mean happening on purpose.

[AdamH]

Hi kuroutesshin,

I like that you keep using the word "we", it's cool that you want your club to get better.

How about this question, which you may or may not be able to answer? How, based on the resources you have, can you improve you?

Fencing is sometimes a game of personalities and we all know it's an individual sport. If you took some of the training games or exercises that are all over this forum, decided on which would be useful to benefit you right now and went to the club to collar a training partner or three and try those games, by raising your own game you would be raising the capital of your club.

Your club sounds pretty healthy, but maybe people don't need to be told or instructed what to do in the absence of a qualified and experienced coach. Quite a lot of clubs run happily with a spectrum of talent with the presence of excellent coaches and you shouldn't need to push any boats out given your current circumstances.

So, how about putting your own training plan together and then asking for some body to join in at your next session?

Best of luck.

[kuroutesshin]

Typically, squad leaders have a drill or two we work on during practice; everyone participates. These are the same drills that you'd get in a lesson, our drills are either from other coaches/what someone remembered seeing/from a book.

But then, we do play games involving bouts- five touches, but three of the five must be accomplished by a specific action or it doesn't count- say, one has to be by fleche, one has to be a parry 6 with riposte, one has to be toe touch, etc. When I personally take a lesson ( I did just last night from an alumni who comes round to coach and fence) it's the classical sort of drill-do this/don't do that/now let's throw this in.

In typical student fashion, we talked big at the beginning of the year about training plans and schedules and coaches, but the reality that "oh hell we have lives and this business is time consuming" quickly set in. Essentially, each squad is responsible for its own development.

Before the paradigm of the club set in its ways/tied to a philosophy comes up- we are trying to figure out where we're going in the future. We've gotten sports psychologists in the university to come work with us and help us plan; we're looking into faculty fencers/alumni who want to coach, and we're trying to change the way we do things for the better.

The hard part is focusing on your own fencing when there's so much going on- this is the biggest drawback to being a student-run club; I have to worry about finances and forms and how much our tournament is going to cost, when I should be worrying about why my beats aren't successful or what's wrong with my redoublements.

[catwood1]

The hard part is focusing on your own fencing when there's so much going on- this is the biggest drawback to being a student-run club; I have to worry about finances and forms and how much our tournament is going to cost, when I should be worrying about why my beats aren't successful or what's wrong with my redoublements.

This is a hard problem to deal with. I am absolutely in the same situation. However, only focus on 1 thing at a time. When you are at practice, focus on fencing. Don't worry about the budget, and how you're getting to the next venue. Worry about fencing. That's the time to think about why your beats aren't successful or whats wrong with your redoublements. Whether its your own fencing, or other peoples (I don't know how much you function as a coach at your club), only focus on the FENCING when you're at practice.

Conversely, don't worry about the fencing when you're doing other things. You can't let the fact that your beats are failing prevent you from doing your job as a club administrator. When you're not at practice, and working on being an admin, don't worry about being a fencer. Don't worry about winning and losing; do what you need to do to put yourself in the best position to fence. Good transportation, food, housing, fighting with the university for practice space, whatever that entails.

Focus on simply 1 thing at a time. Whatever you are doing at any given time, devote your attention 100% to that activity / task.

I've also heard of a good number of other clubs where club officers are NOT the best fencers in the club. In fact, they might not even be on the starting 9. This lets them focus more on the admin side, and less on the fencing. This sounds like a very effective system. (If only I had confidence in other people to not F*** up my club, we'd do the same thing. )

Hope this helps...

[MdA]

Your website lists Chris Oberg as your head coach and advisor. What is his role?

[kuroutesshin]

Coach Oberg previously served as a one-on-one coach and advisor, but he's recently retired (after donating so much of his time), so currently he comes around for an hour a week to fence. It's a transitional period right now as we look for a new advisor.

[MdA]

Since you said he dontated his time, I assume the new advisor/coach will not be paid. Is that correct?

Oberg and the rest of the MSU Fencing alumni should donate their time to getting you a paid professional coach. He is a former full-time employee at the University. He should know how to get this done…and not leave it to the current students/fencers to fight this battle with the administration.

This is what really burns me up about so many collegiate clubs…the program should have been turned over years ago to a young dynamic coach who could build it up. Instead these guys tried to preserve the Schmitter legacy…like a patient on life support…showing up once a week to fence with the students….maintaining their own little private fencing universe….isolated from modern fencing.

My advice is to have a meeting with Oberg and Freiheit (if he is still involved) and tell them you need them to organize alumni and faculty support for a paid professional coach. If they won’t do that, I suggest you take their names and their links off your website. If these guys won’t help you, find some younger MSU fencing alumni who can.

[kuroutesshin]

You have a very good point and I have to say I agree. Caveat: although I personally think we need someone on-staff, who is capable of teaching for-credit classes (like the Kendo club folks... who have even less funding and members) and is able to help us administer; there are others who don't agree with my view of the future of MSU fencing.

I do want to make these suggestions, though, and see what can be done- there's no reason not to.

[DangerMouse]

You may also have limitations placed on you by your club sports office. Under no circumstances are we allowed to pay a coach. All coaches must be volunteers. For fencing that has meant large ups and downs in club strength over the years, but the funding for ALL clubs comes from the student government and this way club sports can claim every dollar goes to students.

[MdA]

You may also have limitations placed on you by your club sports office. .....and this way club sports can claim every dollar goes to students.

I did not intend to offend anyone with my post about a paid professional coach. I understand that club sports are under limitations at many colleges and universities.

Since this thread seemed to shift towards setting goals and motivating a college club team, I thought I would point out one of the most obvious solutions. Most teams need someone to kick them in the butt. It is often difficult for a student/fencer/coach to do this effectively without adversely affecting his/her own performance.

I know this from personal experience. The head coach at my alma mater retired after my junior year. The assistant coach took over and he was a saber coach. I spent my senior year as a fencer/coach for the foil team. It had a negative effect on my results that year but ultimately was a positive experience for me. I am still coaching 27 years later.

I would like to make two recommendations:

1. Don’t get into coaching too soon. That unfortunately, is what happens when collegiate fencers are forced into the coaching role. Work towards achieving the highest possible level as a competitive fencer before you become a coach. It will make you a better coach when you turn your full attention to it. It frustrates me when I see high quality institutions like MSU putting club fencers into the self-coaching situation. So for others who are running a collegiate club…or thinking about it in the future. Get a full-time coach if possible….and not some guy who just wants to hang around for old-times sake.

2. One of the most important jobs of a coach is to hire and train his replacement (if possible). If a fencing club/team is to progress, a good coach should always be working to replace himself with a better coach. This is where many of us coaches fail our teams. We think of ourselves (or our mentor/previous head coach) as irreplaceable…and we never follow through with getting a good replacement. I have seen many clubs and teams stay in limbo for many years waiting to recreate that special spark of a beloved Master. The answer is to get a new one and get on with winning again.

So to wrap this up…my advice to the OP is to concentrate on you own fencing. Don’t worry about the other weapon teams. The University has made a decision to leave you guys/gals on your own so use the time to improve your own fencing. If you’re lucky, you will lead by example and drag your teammates along!

[Delta]

Something a coach has done is five point bouts. Second intention actions get two points, first intention gets one. The theme for the squad bouting could be replaced with anything the squad needs to work on. First to five gets one tally on a board next to our name then we fence round robin.
The bouts remain controlled with a focus of what the coaches want.

Perhaps you could tack on the rotten egg with the least number of points has to sing "Eye of the Tiger" to raise morale....

[DangerMouse]

I did not intend to offend anyone with my post about a paid professional coach. I understand that club sports are under limitations at many colleges and universities.

1. Don’t get into coaching too soon. That unfortunately, is what happens when collegiate fencers are forced into the coaching role. Work towards achieving the highest possible level as a competitive fencer before you become a coach. It will make you a better coach when you turn your full attention to it. It frustrates me when I see high quality institutions like MSU putting club fencers into the self-coaching situation. So for others who are running a collegiate club…or thinking about it in the future. Get a full-time coach if possible….and not some guy who just wants to hang around for old-times sake.

No offense taken, just a bureaucratic limitation.

I agree about not coaching too early, but sometimes there is little other option. I'm in that position. There were no good epee fencers within an hour drive when I first moved here, so I had to start coaching in order to have anyone to fence against. Now, I both coach and compete and the club is small enough where I can do both and still get decent training time.

[LordShout]

To jump back in after a bit of break from the thread:

I talked to the sports pyschologists that we are lucky enough to have come around, got some good ideas, have applied them at practice. In agreement with the general sentiment of the forum they disagreed with the bin idea, something that although I agree with the theory I dislike the actual implementation (no need to really bring up again in this thread as it has no practical application anymore). Their suggestions? I will write up after MFC's probably, once the data is in.

This thread, I like it so far.

1. Don’t get into coaching too soon. That unfortunately, is what happens when collegiate fencers are forced into the coaching role. Work towards achieving the highest possible level as a competitive fencer before you become a coach. It will make you a better coach when you turn your full attention to it. It frustrates me when I see high quality institutions like MSU putting club fencers into the self-coaching situation. So for others who are running a collegiate club…or thinking about it in the future. Get a full-time coach if possible….and not some guy who just wants to hang around for old-times sake.

2. One of the most important jobs of a coach is to hire and train his replacement (if possible). If a fencing club/team is to progress, a good coach should always be working to replace himself with a better coach. This is where many of us coaches fail our teams. We think of ourselves (or our mentor/previous head coach) as irreplaceable…and we never follow through with getting a good replacement. I have seen many clubs and teams stay in limbo for many years waiting to recreate that special spark of a beloved Master. The answer is to get a new one and get on with winning again.

Possibly long winded response, that I think is warranted because your ideas are good and well planned.

For point 1: Oberg is a great guy, one of the only arguments we ever had that lasted longer then a day was about the next coach for MSU. He seemed to understand that he could never take us to the next step and really wanted, but didn’t know how to, attract the next coach to the program. It, coaching, has definitely limited my performance as a fencer, yet until this year we haven’t had a coach that I really felt comfortable fully deferring our foil strategy to. Although I’m a team captain I really asked this question as a foil squad leader. The coach has a life outside of fencing and cannot show up as much as I might wish for in my “perfect fencing program” wet dreams, but is excellent at both teaching and promoting quality.

I agree, what we need to take us to the next level is a true head coach that will wind up organizing coaching and providing a game plan for the student leadership to enact. The real applied difference would be that some other force would be providing that leadership, instead of a confused and ever changing body of student leaders.

However, the team is first and foremost. I might want that, but as others have mentioned if I am in the minority position should I place my views before those of the team? For those who know political theory this is analogous to Edmund’s dilemma. Am I a proxy, elected to reflect those that voted for me, or am I a self-aware being elected to use my discretion? I’ve always operated in the 2nd paradigm, yet many people may feel justified in the first thought system. If the team wants to achieve the best possible outcome while maintaining the self-lead self taught system who am I to go against those wishes? Once you shift from winning as the only goal to winning, while still being casual,* it becomes permissible to go along with this thought system. Is it the paradigm I would choose? No. Is it a paradigm I can live with? On deep reflection, yes.


*I use casual in the gaming sense, that is to say everyone that is not actively trying to be in the top few in the world as a casual player. Do I agree that this is a good definition of casual? Not really, but it works in this case so I’ll run with it for the moment.

2: This is linked to point one, and the first part of my response to point one directly ties in with point 2. Oberg always knew he wasn’t the final answer. The true problem, in my opinion, is that there just isn’t the person we need in the Lansing area. Schmitter was a great guy, Freihheit is a great guy but he’s has other things in his life that demand his attention. Who else around us is capable of both the organizational wizardry and has the fencing skills needed to do such a thing? There are some decent fencers, but they have ‘lives’ outside of fencing and in any event don’t seem to be interested in donating 4-5 nights a week plus weekends and paperwork time to a collegiate team. Have we talked to some of them anyway? Yes, we’ve had them come in and teach lessons. This is a case of geomonetary imitations, there are many people that would work, yet we can’t pay them more than a few free trips and some equipment per year. Are their coaches in the state that could do this? Yes of course, Nemecek, Cho (both Mike and Inge), a handful of others, but it takes a different kind of person to devote themselves to one program wholeheartedly such that they will do so without pay or any hope of pay for years at a time. You correctly warn us against waiting for another Schmitter, “waiting for a…” and we are not, we have people coming in and coaching foil, epee and on occasion sabre. The thing is, we can’t seem to find a middle ground between Schmitter and nothing as far as head coach is concerned. I can, and have, find weapon coaches. People willing to come in 2-4 days a week and give lessons and work with squads. It is finding the magical head coach that we fail at.

Magical? To a point I would say it takes something other than logic for a program that can pay nothing to acquire one of these coaches, especially a program that prides itself on independence.

So the question I ask now is: If to inspire intensity at practice I must acquire a head coach (with all that associated baggage) how do I convince someone to give up 20 hours a week to being a head coach, accepting that people will actively resist them. To me the only answer is they must already be emotionally invested in the program, Freiheit, Oberg, a few others. This investment provides the answer. I owe a lot to MSU fencing. I owe my girlfriend (who is by the way imo the hottest on the team, and btw 2 years so I have no problem getting the girl) my grades, my friends and roommates, all that makes up my daily life in fact, to the team. Without MSU fencing I would probably have ended up fat and playing world of warcraft. I have the investment but not the knowledge. Investment is not enough. If than you don’t have people available with the investment and the knowledge what do you do?


Addendum: TL;DR

[oiuyt]

it takes a different kind of person to devote themselves to one program wholeheartedly such that they will do so without pay or any hope of pay for years at a time.

I don't think MdA was suggesting that you find a professional coach who was willing to work for free.

He was suggesting that you find the means to pay for a professional coach and then hire said person. Well, actually, that your alumni support network ought to do this and if they aren't doing so that you ought to find new mentors who can/do.

-B

[LordShout]

We don't have the money, but to be honest that doesn't matter so much, in the lansing area there aren't really any head coaches for hire, and I'm fairly certain even with the best fundraising organization we couldn't get the money to induce one to pack up and move.

[MdA]

Oiuyt is right. Don’t expect a good professional fencing coach to work for nothing.

If it is the consensus of your team to get a head coach who will “kick your butts”. And, if the MSU club sports department will not pay for a head coach in the immediate future, here are four more suggestions….to find the means

Day job – Your alumni, former coaches, or athletic staff may be able to find the new coach a day job that will pay the bills. It may be at the University or with a local company.

Networking – Your alumni, former coaches, some of the local coaches you already mentioned, or USFA division officers should use fencing networks like the USFCA, Coaches College, FOC, USFA, and f.net to find you a head coach. You may need to hire an Eastern European coach. There are many of them, especially in the Northeast and they may work for a little less…if there is potential to turn this into a full-time gig…or there is work at a local fencing club. They also are not usually adverse to cold climates like East Lansing. You may need an alumni/university attorney to work visa and immigration issues. Sponsor and the day job is important for visa..green card..etc. Don’t forget to look around your collegiate conference…there are often graduate assistants hanging around their alma maters who may be looking for opportunities.

Finally, if you are entertaining thoughts of hanging around after graduation and filling this position yourself, don’t do it. I have never seen it work, especially if you girlfriend is still on the team…and you need someone with more experience to works towards turning the program back into a varsity program. You might consider hanging around as a graduate assistant to help the new head coach.

…and your alumni, former coaches, staff need to get on this right now, if you are going to get a new coach before the next collegiate season. The economy may actually work in you favor since many young coaches may be searching for work (day jobs) and may be willing to relocate over the summer.

[MdA]

Remember, your college club has several positive things going for it. You have a facility, you have equipment, you must have a travel budget, and you have fencers. The only thing you don't have is a salary for a head coach. There are creative ways listed above to work around this...and eventually get this person on the staff...like the kendo coach.

[LordShout]

Some interesting suggestions, thanks much. I'm going to hang around for an extra year but not as a head coach, I've got some classes to finish up so I'll be in school but not traveling.

I'm gonna take some of these suggestions and talk to a few alumni when we have our alumni meet (in a little over a month sadly).