When is coaching too much?

[whizbyu]

I am new to the fencing scene and tournaments. My 13 y/o son started fencing 2 years ago and got his E09 this weekend. I noticed at the tournament that there were coaches who would bark out encouragement, instructions, etc., and while I thought that was fine, the referree told the coaches to refrain from doing that. Many other refs at other strips did not mind the coaching. Is this practice of coaching and yelling encouragement something that is acceptable? Tolerated? Shunned upon?

Another question I have is fencers cussing, "G**D****T!" "Idiot!", yelling more at themselves during competition than at the opponent. Is this acceptable? I felt like telling the ref why a yellow or black card was not raised.

During the course of a conversation with another parent, I was told that policy/procedure is very closely followed at USA Fencing tournaments, so much so that fencers need to be in perfectly crisp/clean uniforms, names sprayed on vests, suits need to be perfectly clean. etc.

[Phincer]

Fencer behavior and referee judgement vary widely from local tournament to local tournament. For the most part referees do a fine job, but you will find some allow more "wiggle room" with certain rules than others. I just finished a referee course (everyone should take one)-it was very enlightening.

Some of your local refs are those that are just starting and may not be totally confident in their calls yet. If you have a question for any ref, just choose a time when the ref isn't working and explain that you are trying to understand why they called (or didn't call) a certain action the way they did. Start with "excuse me, Sir (or M'am), I'm just learning and would like to know more about....".

A ref sometimes lets the talking to oneself after a point go b/c they know the fencer is not directing the language to anyone other than themselves. Sometimes they just dont' hear it. Other times, again depending on the ref, the fencer will be carded.

Of course, if you are lucky enough, a few of your local refs will be experienced and highly rated USFA/FIE refs, and for the most part they are very consistent when they do their job and nurture the newer refs as they develop.

As far as coaches go, they should be only talking to the fencer at breaks in the DE or before and after a bout. If they are disturbing order, the ref can ask them to refrain or card them. Some coaches prefer to talk only during breaks and then stand at the end of the strip where their fencer can see them between points and give hand signals.

During the course of a conversation with another parent, I was told that policy/procedure is very closely followed at USFC tournaments, so much so that fencers need to be in perfectly crisp/clean uniforms, names sprayed on vests, suits need to be perfectly clean. etc.

My bold- I think whoever told you that hasn't been to too many NACs where they lost their breath walking by a group of fencers who don't know that there are laundry facilities at most hotels (and yes, your FIE uni will dry overnight-there are ways). They must not have noticed the lovely sharpie marker labeling (legal but not lovely) of lames and uniforms or refs who have worked five days straight in the same jacket and pants.

What they told you happens in Perfect World. There will be some that go to a national event and end up in Perfect World, some don't.

[whizbyu]

My bold- I think whoever told you that hasn't been to too many NACs

LOL! Yeah, my son's equipment bag smells like the Steelers locker room. We have signed up for the NACS. We'll see how that goes. (sweaty palms!!!)

[Phincer]

LOL! Yeah, my son's equipment bag smells like the Steelers locker room. We have signed up for the NACS. We'll see how that goes. (sweaty palms!!!)

Good luck! Have fun!

Oh and as far as that smelly bag goes...nip that in the bud right now. No stinky bags allowed! It leads down the path of wreck and ruin! Or however you want to spin it. Girls won't like smelly boy or smelly bag.

Wet uniforms + equiment=rust. They can be carded for smelling bad or filthy whites. I even heard one ref tell that another brings a bottle of Febreze to the strip to deal with some of the smells (after they're carded).

You won't be sorry for making him responsible for repairing his own equipment and keeping it clean. You'll have to help every once in a while (he is a teen after all), but he'll get it and you'll be a happy fencing parent.

[telkanuru]

They can be carded for smelling bad or filthy whites. .

No, not really.

Keep them clean anyway.

WRT coaching, different coaches have different styles. Make sure your coach works for your kid, and don't worry so much about everyone else.

Yelling in general is allowed, and I wouldn't even consider words like "Damn" to be cursing to begin with. I don't think I've ever seen anyone carded for a verbal offense that wasn't directed at the referee.

[SJCFU#2]

They can be carded for smelling bad or filthy whites. I even heard one ref tell that another brings a bottle of Febreze to the strip to deal with some of the smells (after they're carded).

They may not get a card for filthy whites however they certainly will get one if their equipment hasn't passed inspection and most armorers aren't likely to pass anything that smells so bad they can't get close enough to test it (I believe Alex Latzko used to call this the "Icky-Icky-Poo test").

[SabreReedfrost]

My coach won't bark out instructions, just talk while we're at the en guarde line in between touches

[arcon]

You ask : is cussing acceptable ? Ive witnessed it but ive never been in a situation where it was a serious problem to the point complaints were made. Fencing is a sport that starts with a salute(usually more than one) and ends with a handshake. In a perfect world you 'd think coaches would always be on their best behavior and set a good example for not just their students but to all they come in contact with in the world of fencing... but...we are not in that perfect world.

I once witnessed a coach throw his foil down after a bout - verbally express himself - as the foil traveled about 10 or 15 yards and came to rest under a womans chair. Nothing was said ...nothing was done.

[SabreReedfrost]

that may be a little extreme... i think that something should be done at that point.

[epeelion]

When is coaching too much? If you see your kid is looking back at their coach after every touch for instructions, you know it's too much. They should struggle on their own, and figure out how to fence without a coach. An independent fencer is the strongest kind.

[telkanuru]

I like epeelion's point very much.

I'd go so far as to suggest coaches don't really coach students at local opens or non-national or national qualifying events.

The ability to think for oneself is not to be underestimated.

[oiuyt]

Just to argue the other side, why would you change the environment for your athletes only when it matters. If you want them to be capable of absorbing coaching information and being able to implement it in bouts at the national (and above) level, they need to have practiced and developed those skills, presumably at lower levels of competition.

-B

*Notes that I'm in favor of independently-thinking athletes rather than coaches fencing the bouts via puppet strings*

[Rockstar44]

You ask : is cussing acceptable ?

Never.

I once witnessed a coach throw his foil down after a bout - verbally express himself - as the foil traveled about 10 or 15 yards and came to rest under a womans chair. Nothing was said ...nothing was done.

This was an act of blatant disregard for the safety of others and he should have been the recipient of an immediate black card.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone carded for a verbal offense that wasn't directed at the referee.

I have, because there are responsible referees out there. Any ref who has control of the bout will not allow it.

[Craig]

*Notes that I'm in favor of independently-thinking athletes rather than coaches fencing the bouts via puppet strings*

Me too and that's how all of my coaches taught me.

Craig

[parrythis]

There is a full spectrum of opinions on what is right and what is acceptable. Often it is the relationship between the athlete and the coach that defines what approach is taken.

When I am at a tournament and am fortunate enough to have someone around to fill the coaching role, I value tactical advice at the 1-minute breaks and between bouts. I don't want someone telling me what to do. I do like having someone tell me what I might be doing wrong or where an opportunity might lie, but not while I am fencing.

I remember fencing one DE in which my opponent's coach was very audibly doling out advice all throughout the bout. The kid I was fencing was probably 16. It was a close bout. He won 15-13 with 2 seconds left on the clock. (foil) When I got done I felt like I had fenced both the fencer AND his coach and all of his coach's years of experience. I wondered if the results of that bout were a true reflection of my opponent's abilities. I wondered what the results would have been if he had stood on his own two feet like I did. I suspect they would have been different.

[unlikelysuspect08]

Coaching is too much when it distracts the other fencer.

At my second tournament ever, I fenced an opponent in a DE whose coach coached the entire bout, during the action, not just between touches. Every move, every parry, every lunge, for God's sake, every advance was encouraged or praised.

I was already facing an opponent with years more experience and skill than me, but I couldn't even concentrate. It being only my second tournament, I wasn't really aware that I could do anything about all that ruckus. Needless to say, it was a sound defeat for me.


And as far as inappropriate language goes, I never allow it when I'm directing a bout; even just at practice amongst oursleves (I'm in a college club) I card people for it.

[telkanuru]

I wasn't really aware that I could do anything about all that ruckus.

You can't do anything about all that ruckus.

However, if someone tried to coach me like that, they'd get an epee chucked at them right quick.

[unlikelysuspect08]

Couldn't it be like disturbing order or something?
I shouldn't have to deal with such distractions while I'm trying to concentrate.

[Purple Fencer]

Coaching DOES kinda depend on the fencer's own skills and how much confidence the coach HAS in them.

I was asked to coach an epeeist at a small tourney in Fullerton this weekend (I was there vending, but Dad approached me and offered a nice payment...I'd be fool to turn it down!)

Daughter is a C, and I've often fenced her in epee, so I know she has a good grasp of the weapon...and more importantly, can take instruction....I'm also confident enough in her skills to not have to yammer at her throughout the ENTIRE bout (SoCal and Orange Coast fencers this year can tell you of one epeeist who's coach is also his father...and who just...will...not....shut...up. The poor kid could win the Olympic gold and not get a touch on him, and dad would still *****).

I would make a few small comments between points ("good attempt," "nice action," "go some place else," etc)and reserved more detailed commentary for after the bout when she could assimilate it.

Oone thing she did listen to was my advice on retreating out of distance and then counter attacking...her opponent was far less experienced than she, so she was able to pull it off, but she was slow with the counter. She had plenty of traction (grounded aluminum plate strip), so I advised her to be more explosive with the counter so she wouldn't get timed out....she made that small change and got three really nice touched out of it that I think she may have lost had she gone slowly.

She made the gold medal bout and lost 15-11 to a guy with a bright, shiney, week-old "A" and gave a good account of herself.

Some other fencers, tho, think they know EVERYTHING and cannot be taught....this one was not one of those.

[telkanuru]

Couldn't it be like disturbing order or something?
I shouldn't have to deal with such distractions while I'm trying to concentrate.

Yeah, no.

Sorry, suck it up and deal.