When is coaching too much?

[MyrddinsPrecint]

There is thread drift, and then there is thread drift...and THIS thread had gotten blind drunk and staggered right over a seaside cliff...and landed on a boat headed for China.

Don't interrupt me, lady. I've sent them to Grenada, I've sent them to Haiti, and I've sent them to Iraqi-occupied Kuwait. All acts of cowardice?

[telkanuru]

I'll check the wire to see if any maimings have been reported.

[Scotsfencer]

Just read this topic and felt it should be brought back onto topic As has been said by a few people so far in this thread, referees can have different attitudes to certain rules depending upon there experiance. Bus as for generl rules on the topics you have brought up:

I am new to the fencing scene and tournaments. My 13 y/o son started fencing 2 years ago and got his E09 this weekend. I noticed at the tournament that there were coaches who would bark out encouragement, instructions, etc., and while I thought that was fine, the referree told the coaches to refrain from doing that. Many other refs at other strips did not mind the coaching. Is this practice of coaching and yelling encouragement something that is acceptable? Tolerated? Shunned upon?

Coaching from the side of a piste at any time during an active bout, that being any time in a poule match or outwith the minute rest periods in the DE matches is a strict nono, unfortunatly only the fencer is permitted to complain about such occurences. So basically get your son to call the referee and ask him to have the offending person warned / removed from piste-side.

Another question I have is fencers cussing, "G**D****T!" "Idiot!", yelling more at themselves during competition than at the opponent. Is this acceptable? I felt like telling the ref why a yellow or black card was not raised.

Shouting & berating one's self during breaks in active fencing (after a hit for example) is in no way a breach of rules as long as it is not an intentional waste of time (Shouting after a nice hit / getting hit for a stupid mistake, but walking back to the back line screaming abuse is a bit off) cards given for small shouts after hits etc would be protested againsed in the extreme.

During the course of a conversation with another parent, I was told that policy/procedure is very closely followed at USA Fencing tournaments, so much so that fencers need to be in perfectly crisp/clean uniforms, names sprayed on vests, suits need to be perfectly clean. etc.

Fencing kit is never going to be Perfectly clean, covered in mud you might get told off, but in large evens that run multiple days your kit can get a bit nasty after a while. Personally I take it as a point of pride that my kit is clean, my name, country tags & Stripes look good, its makes you look good for the new people, and if you walk onto the piste in crisp good looking kit & looking confident it makes the other person stop and think which is always a good thing I dont understand why anyone would not take advantage of looking good in something as simple as there fencing whites, especially when there are a number if fit ladies that might catch your eye!

Overall as a Perental spectator you have no 'right' to ask the referee to card, or ask why a card wasnt given, only the fencers have that privilage. I would advise you to get hold of the FIE Rulebook and study it with your son, Piste Craft is a very usefull part of fencing, if you know the rules you can use them to your advantage if nessesary, you can argue againsed bad calls (within reason) for example.

Hope this helps

[Fencing Mom]

I noticed at the tournament that there were coaches who would bark out encouragement, instructions, etc., and while I thought that was fine, the referree told the coaches to refrain from doing that. Many other refs at other strips did not mind the coaching. Is this practice of coaching and yelling encouragement something that is acceptable? Tolerated? Shunned upon?

If you want to get an earful of coaching from the side of the strip, stand next to the coach of last year's US Olympic men's foilist. This coach is also the father of one of the youngest successful MF to hit the international circuit and a Olympian himself. He is a nonstop barrage of loud, intense instructions from the sideline. Some of his instructions are....hmmm...how shall I put this.... not necessarily in the positive, encouraging manner that parents like to hear when their kids are being coached. So not only is it legal, considering who he is, I doubt that there is a referee in the US who would tell him to refrain.

[Scotsfencer]

True some referees might 'miss' the coaching happening but if the red isn't in a position to enforce the rules they shouldn't be refereeing Olympic level events, in my personal opinion anyone coaching in a fight should get a one way ticket out of the venue, it's cheating plain and simple.

[Allen Evans]

Coaching from the side of a piste at any time during an active bout, that being any time in a poule match or outwith the minute rest periods in the DE matches is a strict nono,

<snip>

Personally I take it as a point of pride that my kit is clean, my name, country tags & Stripes look good, its makes you look good for the new people, and if you walk onto the piste in crisp good looking kit & looking confident it makes the other person stop and think which is always a good thing

t.82 does not allow anyone to speak to the fencers between the words "Fence" and "Halt" but does not address any other time. This might be a rule specific to the US (I don't have a copy of the French rule book). I find (from limited experiance) that the UK interprets coaching during a bout much more strictly and more generally than any of the other places I've coached, or fenced. I don't know if the rules are different in the UK, or if this is just a factor of UK sporting culture.

My one encounter with a UK referee almost got me carded for saying something to my fencer as he walked back to his on guard line after a hit(at a Satellite WC in Edinburgh). Later, one of the other fencers told me that I was not allowed to speak to my fencer at all except during the break, and insisted it was an FIE rule, though I don't see it in the US rules.

As to fencing whites...make your opponent think about, what, exactly? That you might be a better fencer than he/she is because your equipment is new and/or well taken care of? What if you want to give the other impression, that you're NOT that good of a fencer? I've told the story before about one of my students writing off Jon Normile (top US Fencer and Olympic Team member) before the start of a pool because my student didn't look past a grungy uniform,worn shoes and taped up glove and only saw a fencer 15 years older and a foot shorter than he was ( 0 - 5 for Jon in the pool, in less than a minute).

ALL looks can be decieving, not just good looks.

So not only is it legal, considering who he is, I doubt that there is a referee in the US who would tell him to refrain.

The coach in question is often in violation of t.82, which makes it not so legal. However, you're correct, only a few people have asked him to "refrain".

AE

[Scotsfencer]

I agree with your point that British Fencing takes quite a firm view on no coaching once the bout has started exept in designated rest periods (and no we have no 'Special' rules just basic FIE rulebook) we are taught from right at the start just to call encoragement no tactical help at all, im gonna have to break out my rulebook and see if there are any nice little loopholes in there anywhere as you said it only specifically covers the 'Allez' to 'Halt' duration.

As with all refs decisions each referee is a different person therefor have different ideas about how much 'Coaching' is premitted, for example lots of coaches & groups of friends - myself included - develop catchphrases to assist our fencers, specific lines if you get to close to a back line etc, or wiggleing fingers to indicate that your not moving enough, the question being do things like these come under 'coaching'?

~SF

[Allen Evans]

<snip>..... in my personal opinion anyone coaching in a fight should get a one way ticket out of the venue, it's cheating plain and simple.

<snip>.....of coaches & groups of friends - myself included - develop catchphrases to assist our fencers, specific lines if you get to close to a back line etc, or wiggleing fingers to indicate that your not moving enough, the question being do things like these come under 'coaching'?

I dunno...why don't you read these two posts together and tell me?

AE

[Scotsfencer]

Yes I made those posts thanks very much, I was asking your opinion on the matter I know my own opinion and what I class as 'Coaching' lol.

[Allen Evans]

Of course it's coaching: an outside person is assisting the fencer with advice and information in the hopes of influencing their behavior, and thus outcome of the bout. Pretty simple.

t.82 is pretty clear:

During bouts (between the command “Fence” and “Halt,”) no one is allowed to go near the strips or to give advice to the fencers.

Your (and the rest of the UK's, it might seem) interpretation seems to be that no VERBAL advice can be given. *shrug* it's not the rule (at least by the US translation, but I know that there are slight differences between the US and UK versions of the rules), but if that's the way British fencing is interpreting it, so be it.

AE

[oiuyt]

During bouts (between the command "Fence" and "Halt") no one is allowed to go near the strips or to give advice to the fencers. At no time is one allowed to criticize the Officials or thier descisions, to insult them or to attempt to influence them in any way.

During bouts no one is allowed to go near the pistes, to give advice to the fencers, to criticise the Referee or the judges, to insult them or to attempt to influence them in any way.

Au cours des matches, personne n'est autorisé à aller près de la piste, à donner des conseils aux tireurs, à critiquer l’arbitre ou les assesseurs ou à les injurier, ou à les importuner de quelque façon que ce soit.

The fence and halt provision is US-specific.

-B

[oiuyt]

We know that no one would ever consider criticizing referees or trying to influence them in any way.

-B

[Allen Evans]

During bouts no one is allowed to go near the pistes, to give advice to the fencers, to criticise the Referee or the judges, to insult them or to attempt to influence them in any way.

Hmmm...this would seem to leave you in an awkard position, Scotsfencer.

[Allen Evans]

Thanks, Oiuyt.

AE

[Scotsfencer]

Indeed it would appear that I need to throw myself out of the next event, mmmm drama

-SF

[telkanuru]

? I've told the story before about one of my students writing off Jon Normile (top US Fencer and Olympic Team member) before the start of a pool because my student didn't look past a grungy uniform,worn shoes and taped up glove and only saw a fencer 15 years older and a foot shorter than he was

Man that is a terrible plan.

Did you give him a head shot slideshow of top-20 of US points after?