Help needed in picking foil blade & grip

[B-Czar]

Hi everyone,
I've been fencing for about 5 months now, but have lots of trouble with point control. I think the problem might be rooted in the grip and blade I use. I tend to gravitate towards stiffer blades, but the weight of the stiffer blades is always cumbersome for me. Since the blade is heavy I also have trouble keeping a firm grip. Our club grips are mostly mediums. I have a 7.5 hand size so I think I might need a small.
I've tried using Visconti and Belgian grips, but both grips have aspects I like and dislike.
Of the two I think I favor Visconti grips, but the extra nub on Belgian grips make the blade easier to control. I think the nub falls above the bottom two fingers. Belgian grips feel like a deeper grip, but Visconti is more natural. Is there a deep gripping Visconti?
Also, the end of the grips I currently use tend to knock into my wrist and not fit along the curvature of my palm. Perhaps this is because they are a size to big?

I would really appreciate if someone would read my lengthy problem and help me fix it. I know I sound like I'm being picky, but I don't feel as though I'm preforming to the best of my abilities. I didn't think my aim was as bad as it seems.

Basically: What blades are lightweight, yet stiff? What grips suit my preference and what size do I need?

[B-Czar]

AF Elite Color E. Foil Complete w/Pistol Grip
- Grip Uhlmann Vis. Pistol #S (Ins.)
- Guard AF Light Foil Guard
- L/R Hand Right
- Pad AF Transparent Pad
- Point V2 German Foil Point
- Socket German 2-Prong

I tried to custom select one
and this is what I came up with
How light weight is it? Is it manageable?
any opinions what so ever would be helpful

[Cookeit]

You could try a sawed off belgian.

[Firebird7137]

Honestly, I've had great luck with Zivkovic grips. http://www.zivkovic.com

You can buy the complete weapon one their Web site, or just go for the handle and put it on an existing weapon.

I had the same trouble with Visconti grips and switched to Belgian because of the "trigger." However, I found that the "trigger" of a Belgian severely limits my range of motion with my hand when compared to a Zivkovic BII or BIII. From your description, you might want to try a BIII or a KII. The nice thing about Zivkovics is that they have deeper finger grooves than a regular Visconti (giving you more point control) and they are a bit heavier than Belgians and other standard ergonomic grips (giving you more stability). My BIII improved my game a lot!

~FB

[AdamH]

...

Of the two I think I favor Visconti grips, but the extra nub on Belgium grips make the blade easier to control. I think the nub falls above the bottom two fingers. Belgium grips feel like a deeper grip, but Visconti is more natural. Is there a deep gripping Visconti?

...

Basically: What blades are lightweight, yet stiff? What grips suit my preference and what size do I need?

Hi B-Czar,

First, realise that whichever grip you use, finger and fingertip control is going to help your fencing far, far more than a different kind of blade or grip.

Grip/Handle:

I agree you should train with a smaller grip. I wear size 9.5 gloves and currently use extra-small viscontis. Although there are personal preference reasons for this, you should consider at least a small grip.

Describing the Belgian grip as deeper is fairly normal if you are grabbing the grip as a chunky toy. When you hold your foil, you should have no problem in poking the opposite hand's index finger between the grip and the palm of the hand holding it.

This is a function of allowing the fingers to control the blade. It requires a development of finger strength that permits a relaxed control of your point which will come through training. If you make an 'OK' shape with the tips of your index finger and thumb, this is how you may wish to consider holding your foil. Yes, it takes time to develop the hands to consistently fence like this but the benefits in control are absolutely worth it. As the grip slips deeper into your hand, so you end up sacrificing control.

Grips can be manually modified to suit you. A lot of fencers will file down the end of their grip so their index and thumb fingers are comfortably up against the guard. Whichever size of grip you choose, you should be able to flex your index finger and thumb and paint a little with the tip. The other fingers on your hand, when variously squeezed will provide the strength required for moving into firmer positions. As technique, timing and familiarity develop, the need to rely on this type of power of a rigid blade to arm will reduce.

Blade:

If you search the forum, you may find this is a popular topic.

There are many compromises that must be considered between blade charactertistics. As you have been fencing for 5 months, I would recommend getting a blade which is going to last a good amount of time, so you can become familiar with it and concentrate more on developing your actions.

Light and stiff usually means brittle or a short lifespan in terms of stiffness. This can prove either expensive or disruptive or both as blades are replaced.

Heavy and stiff usually means a longer life but may appear frustrating in that you perceive that your actions are not as fast.

If a stiff blade is the primary concern, you may want to find a middle ground that will allow you to develop your stamina with the blade while also letting your concentrate on the fencing.

So, bearing in mind that all blades become flexible with time the best blade demonstrating these properties may also be the most expensive: an FIE BF blade.

A blade which starts stiff and light but has a much shorter lifespan but is also cheaper would be a non-FIE StM.

A blade which can start stiff and heavy but has a long lifespan would be an FIE StM.

A blade which can start stiff and heavy and has probably the longest lifespan and is probably best value for money is a vniti (only come in FIE flavour).

All blades become flexible with use and the vniti is interesting in that as it usually lasts so long the flex eventually becomes quite useful. As it is fairly heavy, the flex becomes familiar and easier to control. Lighter stiff blades may break much earlier before reaching a consistent flex.

Once upon a time I spent months trawling this site and trying different blades, breaking them, getting new blades, sawing bits and pieces off this and that. Throughout this time the general advice was 'get an FIE BF or try a vniti' coupled with 'vnitis are heavy'. I wanted a light stiff blade, too. BF are expensive but excellent! I use vnitis now, I wish I had taken the advice to get one of these FIE blades years ago instead of paying to replace all the light stiff blades - both in terms of money and the time probably wasted in adjusting to each blade.

Heavier blades are used often and once you begin to appreciate that correct technique and timing far outweighs (pun intended) perceived disadvantages in playing with a heavy blade, especially as you become stronger, this will be very beneficial. I would make an exception in this case for very young fencers or those with the smallest frames, both of which are subject to change over time.

In all cases, remember you can adjust the grip to get your fingers closer to the guard. The blade may be set or canted to change the perceived balance characteristics and the search function helps. If in doubt, just go for a neutral 'down' set.

Get a foil, start fencing with it and appreciate that the blade does not make the fencer

[B-Czar]

Thank you for taking the time to explain things to me. I really appreciate the amount of detail you included. After thinking about it further I'll probably stick with a heavy blade and just get a smaller grip. The only problem I had with the heavy blade was arm fatigue, but that will disappear eventually.

[Andrei]

You should look at the Zivkovic grips. They are made really well and are comfortable(in my opinion) there are many variations of it also. They make special grips for small handed people too! They have a great selection. as for blade you dont need an FIE one at this point. Just get an AF one and make sure its with a GERMAN tip. as for socket I prefer 2 prong.

[slow_learner]

B Czar I am much in the same boat as you. Just reached five months in fencing and feeling the need to settle in to a happy place with the handles/blades.

Honestly, I've had great luck with Zivkovic grips. http://www.zivkovic.com
~FB

I put in an order on their site yesterday.

This afternoon (Sunday!) Branomir Z. himself phoned twice to straighten out a couple of points (their site's forms have been a bit wonky apparently). A little later he called back to say certain colors were not available, so I picked alternates. My order will ship tomorrow.

[slow_learner]

Hi B-Czar,

First, realise that whichever grip you use, finger and fingertip control is going to help your fencing far, far more than a different kind of blade or grip.

Agreed.

I agree you should train with a smaller grip. I wear size 9.5 gloves and currently use extra-small viscontis. Although there are personal preference reasons for this, you should consider at least a small grip.

This point intrigues me. I keep coming across references to advanced fencers preferring a smaller size because it gives them more control. And my own experience is starting to validate this idea. I am a size 10 glove. At first I loathed the feel of a Visconti. So for epee I tried a large Belgian and a Russian, because they "fit" my hand snugly. But as I have built hand strength and worked consciously to use my thumb/index finger to control the blade, those grips felt clumsy. Then I re-attached the Athos Visconti that originally came with one of my epees, and lo and behold, it no longer felt cramped, but instead quite "roomy." Blade control was easier.

Ironically, this afternoon at the club, a very experienced epeeist approached me and said that he thought this same Visconti was too small for me. He said it might feel OK for a couple of hours fencing, but that during a full day at a tournament my hand would tire and my performance would suffer. He uses a large Visconti. We compared hands and are about the same size. This guy has won a lot of gold medals and I respect his opinion, but I hope he is wrong. The Zivkovics I ordered yesterday are on the smallish side for me. I want to try them on my foils, which are currently French grips.

Can anybody comment on small grip relative ot hand size = fatigue? What is your experience?

[dtcaslick]

Zivkovic FTW.

[Andrei]

B Czar I am much in the same boat as you. Just reached five months in fencing and feeling the need to settle in to a happy place with the handles/blades.



I put in an order on their site yesterday.

This afternoon (Sunday!) Branomir Z. himself phoned twice to straighten out a couple of points (their site's forms have been a bit wonky apparently). A little later he called back to say certain colors were not available, so I picked alternates. My order will ship tomorrow.

NO WAY! He called me yesterday also. He said that my order did not specify if I was right/left handed or what color I ordered it in. Seems their site is having a few problems.

[slow_learner]

NO WAY! He called me yesterday also. He said that my order did not specify if I was right/left handed or what color I ordered it in. Seems their site is having a few problems.

Looks as if the best thing is to use the Comments box at the bottom of the form and simply repeat the details of your order. For some reason I added a note there stating all the grips ordered should be Lefty, and that came through OK. A bunch of my color choices were lost.

Just curious--what kind of grips did you order?

I am trying a K, Z (just looks too amazing not to) and a BII.

[fatfencer]

I almost never by grips online as I have to ship them back f they are wrong.

That said, please remember to put your glove on when you try them out. You will be fenciing WITH A GLOVE.....how does trying a grip without one make any sense?

Also remember your blade cants will change, often severely after changing grips. They are made with different angles. That will require additional recanting until yoru blades feel right again.

FF

[B-Czar]

Does anyone know the sizing on the Hungarian grip?

[Craig]

Does anyone know the sizing on the Hungarian grip?

The PbT hungarian grip comes in Small and Regular. Small is recommended for a 7.5 or smaller glove size.

Craig