Updates Northwestern College Meet

[MdA]

Remember updates for Northwestern's College multi-meet are available here

http://www.collegefencing360.com/blog/

Bout schedules for this Saturday and Sunday are posted.

[pillow]

I know this is going to sound dumb---but for those of us who follow non-NCAA fencing, meaning NACs and World Cups, how can you tell anything by the 5 touch bouts that is the standard for NCAA meets? It would be like having a tennis tournament decided by a single 8 or 10 game set. Sure, it's legit, but it can never have the scope or depth of best-of-3 or best-of-5 sets. Same for fencing--without a 15 point bout, isn't something important missing from this format?

[Mr.MightyMouse]

somehow through the first 8 decades FIE it got done

[SJCFU#2]

I know this is going to sound dumb---but for those of us who follow non-NCAA fencing, meaning NACs and World Cups, how can you tell anything by the 5 touch bouts that is the standard for NCAA meets? It would be like having a tennis tournament decided by a single 8 or 10 game set. Sure, it's legit, but it can never have the scope or depth of best-of-3 or best-of-5 sets. Same for fencing--without a 15 point bout, isn't something important missing from this format?

You do realize that dual meet format used in collegiate fencing (which includes both collegiate clubs and NCAA) isn't so much intended to determine an individual winner as a winning team and that the winning team is based on the number of bouts won by the entire team.

Also, as MrMightyMouse already pointed out, it wasn't that long ago that everything was based on 5-touch pool bouts - direct elimination bouts were only introduced about 20 years ago, followed by a period of experimentation with various formats before things settled down.

[oiuyt]

A 5-touch bout yields some information, but not a huge amount.

A season's-worth of them provides quite a bit of information.

23 of them over 2 days (@ NCAA Nationals) yields quite a bit of information. Further refined by a miniature DE tableau for the top 4 positions.

-B

[Mr.MightyMouse]

A 5-touch bout yields some information, but not a huge amount.

A season's-worth of them provides quite a bit of information.

23 of them over 2 days (@ NCAA Nationals) yields quite a bit of information. Further refined by a miniature DE tableau for the top 4 positions.

-B

I always thought that it is one of the best and definitely most exciting formats.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I know this is going to sound dumb---but for those of us who follow non-NCAA fencing, meaning NACs and World Cups, how can you tell anything by the 5 touch bouts that is the standard for NCAA meets? It would be like having a tennis tournament decided by a single 8 or 10 game set. Sure, it's legit, but it can never have the scope or depth of best-of-3 or best-of-5 sets. Same for fencing--without a 15 point bout, isn't something important missing from this format?

How can you tell anything from 15 touch bouts? Sure, it's legit, but it can never have the scope or depth of a 30 touch bout. Isn't something important missing from this format?

5, 10, or 15 touches are rather arbitrary cut offs. Sure there are differences in tactics between 5 and 15 touches, but just because you need slightly different skill sets/strategies for each doesn't mean that it's fundamentally different.

[pillow]

Of course a 15 touch bout is an arbitrary cutoff, but it is far superior to a 5 touch bout in allowing fencers to use all their skill. That's why we have 15 touch DEs now, not 5 touch pools as we did 20 years ago, as noted above. Bouts of 5 touches is simply one format, that's all, but it does not eliminate the luck factor, nor does it allow the full scope and beauty of a longer bout. NCAA should consider 10 touch bouts as the Vets use. Not as time consuming as 15 touches, but probably a better measure of a fencer's ability. I'm sure if athletes can run around a soccer pitch or basketball court for an hour, fencers could handle multiple 10 touch bouts in the NCAA meet format.

[Mr.MightyMouse]

Of course a 15 touch bout is an arbitrary cutoff, but it is far superior to a 5 touch bout in allowing fencers to use all their skill.

I truly fail to see the point.
DE format needs more touches for proper tournament length, poule format less;
pentathletes compete in 1 touch round robin, and as a rule of thumb the best ones win.
Is Karpaty less of a champion than Zhong since he fenced 'till 5 touches?
On the other hand I am not positive what does "use all their skill" mean.
Perhaps a letter to the NCAA Committee is in order?

[catwood1]

I always thought that it is one of the best and definitely most exciting formats.

I think it is definitely one of the most exciting formats...
I also tend to think its pretty good, but I go back and fourth on it.

[erooMynohtnA]

Of course a 15 touch bout is an arbitrary cutoff, but it is far superior to a 5 touch bout in allowing fencers to use all their skill. That's why we have 15 touch DEs now, not 5 touch pools as we did 20 years ago, as noted above.

No, we have the 15 touch direct elimination format to prevent cheating.

Bouts of 5 touches is simply one format, that's all, but it does not eliminate the luck factor, nor does it allow the full scope and beauty of a longer bout. NCAA should consider 10 touch bouts as the Vets use. Not as time consuming as 15 touches, but probably a better measure of a fencer's ability. I'm sure if athletes can run around a soccer pitch or basketball court for an hour, fencers could handle multiple 10 touch bouts in the NCAA meet format.

No.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Of course a 15 touch bout is an arbitrary cutoff, but it is far superior to a 5 touch bout in allowing fencers to use all their skill. That's why we have 15 touch DEs now, not 5 touch pools as we did 20 years ago, as noted above. Bouts of 5 touches is simply one format, that's all, but it does not eliminate the luck factor, nor does it allow the full scope and beauty of a longer bout. NCAA should consider 10 touch bouts as the Vets use. Not as time consuming as 15 touches, but probably a better measure of a fencer's ability. I'm sure if athletes can run around a soccer pitch or basketball court for an hour, fencers could handle multiple 10 touch bouts in the NCAA meet format.

Why do we have 15 touch bouts instead of 30 touch bouts? Anywhere you put the cutoff, some people will think that the shorter format "does not eliminate the luck factor nor does it allow the full scope and beauty of a longer bout."

Or at least can make the argument as convincingly as you do.

Look, if you're used to 15 touch bouts, you get used to using the first 5 touches to figure things out. At some point, you get serious. You change tactics as the bout progresses.

When you're used to fencing 5s, and your opponent is used to fencing 5s, you may be using slightly different actions and slightly different tactics. You certainly won't be using the first 5 touches to figure things out. But you will attempt to get better at figuring someone else quickly. You might get better at watching your opponents, helping your teammates, getting help from your teammates, and noticing patterns in each school. Of course, all of these things would help if you were fencing bouts to 15.

It's all about what you're used to.

[oiuyt]

If 5 touches were enough then the Olympic team matches wouldn't consist of 9 15-touch encounters....

-B

[pillow]

No, we have the 15 touch direct elimination format to prevent cheating.


No.

Can you expand a bit on your "no" answer, please?

[erooMynohtnA]

I like watching 15 touches better than 5, but it's not all about me. Somehow 5 touch bouts are a good enough indicator to seed people into a 15 touch DE, and they're good enough for a dual meet.

NCAA dual meets already take all day or all weekend. 10 touch bouts would not be feasible given the time constraints without cutting the number of bouts fenced significantly and detrimentally.

The only argument that I can see for a 15 or 10 touch format is that the 5 touch format is so random in terms of results that the fencers would profit from the much smaller number of high score bouts. That argument is a poor one, because it can be demonstrated that the 5 touch format works fine in terms of the stronger fencer coming out on top.

If you're not familiar enough with fencing competition formats to be aware that the 5 touch pools were nixed due to collusion between fencers, I would suggest a little research, then re-examining the issue.

[pillow]

I like watching 15 touches better than 5, but it's not all about me. Somehow 5 touch bouts are a good enough indicator to seed people into a 15 touch DE, and they're good enough for a dual meet.

NCAA dual meets already take all day or all weekend. 10 touch bouts would not be feasible given the time constraints without cutting the number of bouts fenced significantly and detrimentally.

The only argument that I can see for a 15 or 10 touch format is that the 5 touch format is so random in terms of results that the fencers would profit from the much smaller number of high score bouts. That argument is a poor one, because it can be demonstrated that the 5 touch format works fine in terms of the stronger fencer coming out on top.

If you're not familiar enough with fencing competition formats to be aware that the 5 touch pools were nixed due to collusion between fencers, I would suggest a little research, then re-examining the issue.

As far as time constraints, perhaps the NCAA format is already trying to do too much already. Secondly, how do you know there is no collusion now?

[prototoast]

As far as time constraints, perhaps the NCAA format is already trying to do too much already. Secondly, how do you know there is no collusion now?

There is collusion.

Given time constraints, 5 touch bouts allow each fencer to go up against many more opponents. While a DE format may be reasonable at finding an individual champion, it is very poor at stratifying the remaining competitors. There may be greater opportunity for upsets in the shorter bouts, but the greater bout numbers make the results much more dependent on the "luck of the draw."

[warlordkenobi]

There may be greater opportunity for upsets in the shorter bouts

Why is this a bad thing? If a fencer can't focus and fence well in each bout they don't deserve to win them. Consistency is an important skill to possess as well. Plus multiple shorter bouts makes it more about the team rather than the individuals which IMO is the best part of collegiate fencing.

[prototoast]

Why is this a bad thing? If a fencer can't focus and fence well in each bout they don't deserve to win them. Consistency is an important skill to possess as well. Plus multiple shorter bouts makes it more about the team rather than the individuals which IMO is the best part of collegiate fencing.

I'm don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. I actually think the NCAA championship format is one of the best formats for a fencing tournament (large number of 5 touch bouts to break down the fencers, 15 touch bouts to determine the individual champion). Still, whether or not consistency is a good thing or bad thing seems like a matter of personal preference, and I was trying to focus on more objective issues.

[MdA]

There has been discussion amongst some NCAA coaches about a team event at the NCAAs. Something like a Final Four in other sports. The current NCAA format is really just a collection of indvidual competitions from which a team result is calculated.

Some argue that a showdown between the top teams would be more exciting and interesting to the media. What do you think?