Updates Northwestern College Meet

[oiuyt]

It's hard to see a way to add a team event without either reducing the number of schools that have at least one participant or increasing the overall costs. My understanding is that the NCAA is extraordinarily unwilling to bend on either of those two.

As a team-oriented person (and coach) I would love for us to move to a format that wasn't just about individual performance. I have difficulty coming up with a reasonable proposal to accomplish that without breaking one of the two constraints in the first paragraph.

-B

[Dr Epee]

The current NCAA championship format allows talented individuals on weaker teams to to participate. It also allows the weaker teams themselves to have representation. If you went to a strictly team format, you'd see only ND, Ohio State, Penn State and maybe an Ivy or 2 every year. With each school sending a full team, you'd have to cut the number of participating schools to a handfull. Less well funded teams like MIT, NYU or BC (or UNC or JHU, the list goes on) who have some worthy individual fencers, but whose teams can't match up to the strength of the top 5 or 6 would never get a shot.

Besides, the current megapool format is a blast.

[tchwojko]

The best of nine 5 touch bouts is not quite the same as a pool of 5 touch bouts. It's more like three 15 touch team bouts. You watch your teammates and pick up similar info as if you were fencing them. You know your teammates' styles well, so you know what they're trying to do and when.

My team bouts had a very different feel than my pool bouts do now.

Just my opinion, even though I phrased it rather factually.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I agree that the Dual Meet format promotes teamwork. It's very easy to see which schools have squads that are friendly, get along well, and understand each other's fencing, and which are only concerned with their own performance. I've fenced with individuals on both sides of that divide (in fact, one person I know went from one extreme to another in a year), and I have to prefer the former. The former seems to win more bouts, even above the enjoyment factor.

Besides, the current megapool format is a blast.

The current format is an interesting and exciting way to determine individual champions, and a reasonably poor way to determine championship schools.

Determining a championship school well would most likely lead to a reasonably poor way to determine individual champions (individual champions in the room would not be the same as individual champions in the full pool of ncaa fencers, most likely.)

[MdA]

It's hard to see a way to add a team event without either reducing the number of schools that have at least one participant or increasing the overall costs. My understanding is that the NCAA is extraordinarily unwilling to bend on either of those two.

As a team-oriented person (and coach) I would love for us to move to a format that wasn't just about individual performance. I have difficulty coming up with a reasonable proposal to accomplish that without breaking one of the two constraints in the first paragraph.

-B

I think there is a way to preserve the individual format for the small fencing programs and built Final Four team excitement.

Here is an idea I developed with one of the top NCAA coaches. The individual round-robin and top 4 DE would remain the same.

At the end of the individuals the top four teams based on points from the individual as currently calculated (men and women separately) are seeded into a DE table of four.

The team format needs to be shorter and more exciting than the traditional 27 bout format.

We propose a 6 person team relay for 60 touches. 12 5-touch bouts (3 minutes). 2 fencers in each weapon. Most of the top teams qualify 2 fencers in all weapons and those that don’t bring alternates anyway.

First team to 60 wins or the team ahead after 12 3minute periods. You could get a match done in 1 hour. There is usually time in the evenings at the NCAA. Might have to give up the team dinner (on Friday night) but you could tell the media that at 7 PM in the basketball arena the final four for the Women’s team NCAA Championship will begin.

The top seeded team picks the first weapon (F,E.S). The opponent picks the second weapon in the rotation.

I think this team relay has been done in Europe

[oiuyt]

I think that's a reasonable modification for only a slightly increased resource cost.

On the other hand the NCAA has repeatedly denied requests (made at the cabinet level) to award separate prizes for men's and women's teams.* If they're not even willing to do that, I don't see this as likely to get approval.

The hard part isn't coming up with good ideas, it's figuring out how to present the good ideas in such a way that they have a chance of passing.

As a slight amendment to the proposal I would suggest allowing the favored team to either pick the first weapon to fence or be allowed to defer and pick the second weapon to fence. An alternative amendment would be not to give the higher seed the option, but do a coinflip and allow that team the option. Obviously these amendments are completely independent and either or both can be used to modify the proposal as described.

-B

* This is a significant issue for schools that sponsor fencing in only a single weapon (such as Temple) where it is impossible to win a national title under the current format, even if the school qualifies the maximum number of athletes and they win every bout at the Championships.