No team events at PCCs this year???

[oiuyt]

I thought CadetVet wanted to add Cadets to PCC's; isn't it 1 of the ways to qualify for Nats as well?

Cadets qualify through their division (or the various auto-qual paths).

North Atlantic Section runs a Junior/Cadet Sectionals (separate from their Senior Sectionals). The junior events are qualifiers, the cadet events aren't, but still end up being high-quality events. As part of that the cadet events are not limited to members of the section, although that tends to be from where the overwhelming majority of the participants are drawn.

-B

[teacup]

The problem with hosting local or regional events with both Jr and Cadet events on the same weekend is that since all cadets can fence in junior events, both events tend to be diluted with some fencers not knowing which event to fence or many of the same fencers in both.

It is much better to have a Jr/Y14, cadet/vet or some other combination.

(Having Jr/U19 qualifiers, 1990 - 1996, and regular cadet events, 1992 - 1995, with different season birth year requirements can make people really confused. Plus the jr qualifier would be able to have younger fencers than the cadet event which really doesn't make sense. )

In general if a junior/cadet fencer can only fence one event at a tournament where both events are offered, I would suggest fencing in the Junior because they may have a better chance of getting a rating since the cadet needs to be a C1 in order for ratings to be awarded. Junior events are not limited to this restriction. While it doesn't matter in a large strong division, a smaller division may have difficulty getting a C1 cadet event, especially for women's events.

[Purple Fencer]

That is where it is being held. I am going to swing by there this weekend and look at the gym space again. The east gym has strips painted on the floor so that room is set. the west gym could possibly be laid out with 12 strips , but that will leave little room to manuver

See ya Sunday, Terry!

When they redid the floor in the east gym (where they usually hold the OC events), they strips were NOT laid out properly (failure to follow instructions by the floor crew, I think). Jo Redmon was thinking of refusing to pay her portion of the fee, since it was screwed up...I believe the floor is going to be redone properly...if sdo, it should be done long before PCCs.

If I get in Sunday and smell paint and such, I'll know they did it!

[notalent]

See ya Sunday, Terry!

When they redid the floor in the east gym (where they usually hold the OC events), they strips were NOT laid out properly (failure to follow instructions by the floor crew, I think). Jo Redmon was thinking of refusing to pay her portion of the fee, since it was screwed up...I believe the floor is going to be redone properly...if sdo, it should be done long before PCCs.

If I get in Sunday and smell paint and such, I'll know they did it!

I will be at the RYC this weekend, so im only swinging by on the way in or out on sat or sun.

[notalent]

I meant an extra day, sorry.

No, even if we could I dont like the 3 day event as someone has to take a day off from work and or school.

[teacup]

No, even if we could I dont like the 3 day event as someone has to take a day off from work and or school.

Yes, three days is too long, as it is some people may have to take off a day of school/work if they have to drive from far away.

[notalent]

I meant an extra day, sorry.

No, even if we could I dont like the 3 day event as someone has to take a day off from work and or school.

[CadetVet]

One thing that everyone needs to remember is that economics play a large part in these decisions. Although there is money owed to the Section by the USFA, that has yet to be paid. In addition, there is a sizable outstanding claim against the Section from people who believe that they were wronged in prior years. That claim is worth approximately 25 times our current bank balance.

I would love to hold a hundred events - but it is important to remember the following facts:

1) We cannot deficit spend. No individual is going to float the section one dime - and we simply don't have any money. Hell, we cannot even afford to send the USFA rep to the meeting (fortunately, she is going to referee, so the USFA will be paying (at some point). The USFA owes several years worth of money to the section, but the USFA has not provided this money after repeated requests. If someone wants to fund more events or guarantee against losses, we'd be glad to do more.

2) The section has, by its charter, only the ability to hold and sanction two events - the Junior and Senior qualifier. Any other event has to be sanctioned by a division. This issue was settled a couple of years ago when the Section tried to hold an RYC and was nuked by SoCal because of a sanctioning issue. Divisions have not, however, been forthcoming with a variety of events to pull under the PCS umbrella.

To the extent that there are complaints that certain things are happening differently, it is important to remember that we're now "playing by the rules." Not doing that was something that people were unhappy with in past events. When you put numbers on paper and seek to budget reasonably - as opposed to spend and then hope it gets made up or short-pay vendors - the style of the event, by necessity, will change.

We are taking a conservative approach to make sure that we remain solvent. Like the national economy, we cannot continue to operate on credit - we have to pay cash.

[TrojanMD]

When you put numbers on paper and seek to budget reasonably - as opposed to spend and then hope it gets made up or short-pay vendors - the style of the event, by necessity, will change.

I find it horrifying that a change in "style" has come to mean a complete disregard for tradition. The Team Events have been part of the defining landscape of the Section since before many of our distinguished coaches and referees gave up competition and lost all their hair (not necessarily in that order). Stories of Grenadiers, Gascon, Salle Mori, and Letterman peppered practices, dinners, and the long car rides to wherever PCCs where being held - some grudges are held even to this day! Almost no one remembers who won the qualifier from year to year, but I bet Spartak remembers exactly when they first started their long reign in Team Sabre. (all they have to do is look at the huge shiney trophy with their names on it) Team events unify clubs like nothing else in this sport - why deny the clubs of the PCS this opportunity?

But if the bottom line is truly to be economics, consider this. 37 teams participated in last year's PCCs. At $75/team, that's $2775 - a sizeable chunk of money towards facility fees or officials fees, costs that are already incurred due to the qualifying events. In the interest of solvency, why not make use of the space and the officials that are already there to make a little extra cash?

[oiuyt]

But if the bottom line is truly to be economics, consider this. 37 teams participated in last year's PCCs. At $75/team, that's $2775 - a sizeable chunk of money towards facility fees or officials fees, costs that are already incurred due to the qualifying events. In the interest of solvency, why not make use of the space and the officials that are already there to make a little extra cash?

Team events tend to be resource-hungry.

An entry to the individual event represents (on average) 5-6 pool bouts and 2 DE bouts. So 12 5-touch bout equivalents total.

A team entry represents (on average) 2 team matches. So 18 5-touch equivalents. Assuming places aren't fenced off (I can't remember whether or not that's a warranted assumption at PCCs).

The administrative overhead for managing team matches tends to be higher on a per bout basis as well. Matches frequently chew up two referees for an hour or so. They have more lulls than individual competitions, which tend to continue to flow once they start with only a single breaking point (between pools and DEs).

The space and official expenses are roughly proportionate to the strip-time requirements of the set of events to be run. If there's excess space and excess officials already paid for then adding an event can be done at zero (or near zero) marginal cost. It doesn't sound like that's the case here.

-B

[CadetVet]

I find it horrifying that a change in "style" has come to mean a complete disregard for tradition. The Team Events have been part of the defining landscape of the Section since before many of our distinguished coaches and referees gave up competition and lost all their hair (not necessarily in that order). Stories of Grenadiers, Gascon, Salle Mori, and Letterman peppered practices, dinners, and the long car rides to wherever PCCs where being held - some grudges are held even to this day! Almost no one remembers who won the qualifier from year to year, but I bet Spartak remembers exactly when they first started their long reign in Team Sabre. (all they have to do is look at the huge shiney trophy with their names on it) Team events unify clubs like nothing else in this sport - why deny the clubs of the PCS this opportunity?

But if the bottom line is truly to be economics, consider this. 37 teams participated in last year's PCCs. At $75/team, that's $2775 - a sizeable chunk of money towards facility fees or officials fees, costs that are already incurred due to the qualifying events. In the interest of solvency, why not make use of the space and the officials that are already there to make a little extra cash?

With all due respects, an additional $2,775 in revenue is not significant. Assume that referee costs run about $250/day for near-local (everyone charges for mileage) and $400/day for travel-ins, you can see that the revenue doesn't go all that far to support that type of event.

Furthermore, team events necessarily overlap individual events in a two-day competition, causing additional delays and coordination issues.

Back in the "good old days," referee, bout committee, armorer and venue costs were far lower. Furthermore, the section was far more likely to receive its USFA payments (we haven't received ours). Put simply - we have no cushion and no credit (and I don't believe that it is the section chair's obligation to float money to the section - and certainly, this section chair isn't going to). Thus, we must run conservatively.

All that being said, we're probably going to explore some options with regard to team events - space permitting. First, we may create 4 or 6 narrow strips primarily for use by the team events. If we can increase the number of strips by 4, we may be able to do the team event. Complaints about specifications aside, this is one possible way to address some of the issue.

Second, we will probably make the close of registration sometime in early March for the individual events. That way, we'll know our counts and know whether we have the ability to add a team event. In that case, we will have a separate registration period for the teams that will begin upon close of the individual registration period.

Note that the registration on AskFred should be up pretty soon (early next week). It will probably go through March 4 at ordinary fees, and registration after March 4 will be at triple fees. If our numbers facilitate the team event at that point, we'll open up registration for that event.

[notalent]

Team events tend to be resource-hungry.

An entry to the individual event represents (on average) 5-6 pool bouts and 2 DE bouts. So 12 5-touch bout equivalents total.

A team entry represents (on average) 2 team matches. So 18 5-touch equivalents. Assuming places aren't fenced off (I can't remember whether or not that's a warranted assumption at PCCs).

The administrative overhead for managing team matches tends to be higher on a per bout basis as well. Matches frequently chew up two referees for an hour or so. They have more lulls than individual competitions, which tend to continue to flow once they start with only a single breaking point (between pools and DEs).

The space and official expenses are roughly proportionate to the strip-time requirements of the set of events to be run. If there's excess space and excess officials already paid for then adding an event can be done at zero (or near zero) marginal cost. It doesn't sound like that's the case here.

-B

Brad I have disagree on just about your whole post . Pool of 7 is 2+ hours time for seeding and strip assignment and your close to 3 hours that is all the time needed for 3 rounds of teams and your 8 team event is over. you only need to seed once and all asignments can be done after the table is set. 1 ref per match was all I got at SN until we had collapsed down to 2 strips ( I suppose that is because you trust me to move things along, that or you wanted to make work harder ) A 12 team event takes one more hour. We dont have to worry about conflicts at PCCs so assigning is easy enough. The lulls you speak of happen in an individual event aswell as you get down to the 16 you start having rest time requests. All we need is an additional 4 strips and there is no reason to expect teams to cost us more than an extra hour if that. Considering the tradition involved that seems to be an acceptable cost. The refs will be there after all. Also this is an extra event for adults something that we dont get enough of.

[teacup]

Second, we will probably make the close of registration sometime in early March for the individual events. That way, we'll know our counts and know whether we have the ability to add a team event. In that case, we will have a separate registration period for the teams that will begin upon close of the individual registration period.

So are you suggesting holding team events on the same day as either the Jr or Div I qualifiers like happened last year?

[CadetVet]

So are you suggesting holding team events on the same day as either the Jr or Div I qualifiers like happened last year?

Unless someone comes up with an acceptable event schedule and venue, if there are team events, they will be interspersed with the other events.

[oiuyt]

So are you suggesting holding team events on the same day as either the Jr or Div I qualifiers like happened last year?

It's a two-day tournament. You're looking at three events (Senior, Junior, Team). At least two have to be on the same day. There's nothing wrong with that. It might cut the numbers a bit for team as people prioritize the qualifiers, but that doesn't significantly hurt.

-B

[teacup]

It's a two-day tournament. You're looking at three events (Senior, Junior, Team). At least two have to be on the same day. There's nothing wrong with that. It might cut the numbers a bit for team as people prioritize the qualifiers, but that doesn't significantly hurt.

-B

As long as Jr/Div I and team event of the same sex/weapon do not start at the time time as happened last year with Jr/team WE.

Note, I am not referring to close of check in but START times.