On Qualifiers and Classifications

[fdad]

According to the athletes handbook: "If a fencer meets the classification requirement when his or her application is processed by the USFA,
and subsequently earns a higher classification, the fencer retains eligibility for that tournament."

In the case of Summer Nationals, a fencer is unable to apply until they qualify. However, in larger divisions, its likely that winning the Div 3 qualifier earns them a C rating. Is such a fencer eligible to register for the Div 3 event once they have earned the C? I thought I heard someplace that as long as they were eligible at the time they registered for the qualifier, it was ok, but I can't find any reference to that.

Another possibility is for a D rated fencer to do well enough at Section Junior or Division IA qualifiers to earn a B (or A). By winning the Junior qualifier, they qualify for Div 1A. By qualifying in Div 1A, they qualify for Div 2. By qualifying for Div 2, they qualify for Div 3. Assuming they'd already registered for their division's Div 2/3 qualifier(s), are they eligible to fence in those events at the SN?

[HDG]

Assuming they'd already registered for their division's Div 2/3 qualifier(s), are they eligible to fence in those events at the SN?

FWIW, Sectionals are usually held after Divisionals in my (limited) experience.

[fdad]

FWIW, Sectionals are usually held after Divisionals in my (limited) experience.

By usually you mean in most divisions and sections, but there is at least one where qualifiers are held in the order Junior, Cadet, Y14, Div 1A, Div 2/3:

http://askfred.net/Events/moreInfo.p...nament_id=6673

http://askfred.net/Events/moreInfo.p...nament_id=6674

[nahouw]

By usually you mean in most divisions and sections, but there is at least one where qualifiers are held in the order Junior, Cadet, Y14, Div 1A, Div 2/3:

http://askfred.net/Events/moreInfo.p...nament_id=6673

http://askfred.net/Events/moreInfo.p...nament_id=6674

The Metro Division is also it's own Section, so it is an entirely different dynamic than all the other Sections and Divisions. I would think that it only runs a Sectional event and not run a Divisional event because that would be redundant.

[fdad]

The Metro Division is also it's own Section, so it is an entirely different dynamic than all the other Sections and Divisions. I would think that it only runs a Sectional event and not run a Divisional event because that would be redundant.

It runs the events I said it does in the order I (and askfred) said it does. It calls them all division events, even though division == section. That is not the question, the question is in the first post on this thread.

[nahouw]

It runs the events I said it does in the order I (and askfred) said it does. It calls them all division events, even though division == section. That is not the question, the question is in the first post on this thread.

Maybe it is a conscious decision of the Metro Division to run those tournaments in that order so as to not have the trickle down effect.

Also, the rule you quoted is for the case of for example, qualifying for the Div III tournament and then subsequently, but yet before Summer Nationals, the fencer earns a C. That fencer is still eligible to enter the Div III Summer Nationals even though he has a C, because he qualified via the Divisional Qualifier.

[fdad]

Maybe it is a conscious decision of the Metro Division to run those tournaments in that order so as to not have the trickle down effect.

Actually, it looks like the order is designed to create, not avoid, trickle down.

Also, the rule you quoted is for the case of for example, qualifying for the Div III tournament and then subsequently, but yet before Summer Nationals, the fencer earns a C. That fencer is still eligible to enter the Div III Summer Nationals even though he has a C, because he qualified via the Divisional Qualifier.

The rule that I quoted seems to apply to a case where a fencer registers for an event, then after the USFA receives the registration request the fencer achieves a rating that would disqualify them from registering.

It does not cover the case where after or during qualification to an event, but before the fencer is able to get the registration request to the USFA, the fencer achieves a rating that would disqualify them.

[thisissparta514]

At last year's Metro NYC SN qualifiers, Max Rosen-Long won the Div IA qualifier, earned his B, won the Div II/III qualifier, and was allowed to fence in both Div II and Div III.

[fdad]

At last year's Metro NYC SN qualifiers, Max Rosen-Long won the Div IA qualifier, earned his B, won the Div II/III qualifier, and was allowed to fence in both Div II and Div III.

Is there a written rule that allowed this, or was a decision made to allow him to register in the absence of a rule.

BTW, he didn't need to fence in the Div 2/3 qualifier since:

"Eligibility (classification, qualifying path) – Summer National Championships

DIVISION II
Fencers must have a classification in the weapon of “C”, “D”, “E” or Unclassified at the time of the qualifying competition AND meet age requirements as above AND –
• Place in the top 25% of the current season’s Division Qualifying competition (see Chapter 2 .7 for detailed chart) (USFA BOD Sept 2006)
• Qualified for Division IA, if classification eligible. [Board of Directors, September 2008].

DIVISION III
Fencers must have a classification in the weapon of “D”, “E” or Unclassified at the time of the qualifying competition AND meet age requirements as above AND –
• Place in the top 25% (see Chapter 2.7 for detailed chart) of the total number of “D”, “E” or “U” fencers competing in the current season Division’s Division II Qualifying competition (when Division II and Division III qualifying competition held together) OR
• If separate Division III qualifying competition held by Division, then top 25% of the field
will qualify for Division III National Championships (USFA BOD Sept 2006) OR
• Qualified for Division II, if classification-eligible.. [Board of Directors, September 2008]."

Do you know whether he was treated as an auto-qualifier in the Div 2/3 qualifier (was he skipped when picking the top 25%)?

[thisissparta514]

Do you know whether he was treated as an auto-qualifier in the Div 2/3 qualifier (was he skipped when picking the top 25%)?

Not sure.

[thisissparta514]

Also, he didn't fence Div III, having previously been a C. My mistake.

[fdad]

BTW, he didn't need to fence in the Div 2/3 qualifier since: ...
• Qualified for Division IA, if classification eligible. [Board of Directors, September 2008].

Oops, I didn't read closely enough - the BoD added this clause in Sept 2008.

I guess one answer to my question is that, since rating changes aren't official/effective until the USFA updates the membership listing, the fencer is still a D.

[nahouw]

Is there a written rule that allowed this, or was a decision made to allow him to register in the absence of a rule.

"Eligibility (classification, qualifying path) – Summer National Championships

DIVISION II
Fencers must have a classification in the weapon of “C”, “D”, “E” or Unclassified at the time of the qualifying competition AND meet age requirements as above AND –

As bolded above, if they had the specified classification at the time of the qualifying competition, then they are eligible to fence in Summer Nationals.

[fdad]

As bolded above, if they had the specified classification at the time of the qualifying competition, then they are eligible to fence in Summer Nationals.

Yes I think that answers may question. The key is understanding when a qualification change occurs. Seems like even if you earn the qualification change, its not effective until processed by USFA. So you do not have that rating until at least the next membership list update.

[edew]

Is there a written rule that allowed this, or was a decision made to allow him to register in the absence of a rule.

BTW, he didn't need to fence in the Div 2/3 qualifier since:

"Eligibility (classification, qualifying path) – Summer National Championships

DIVISION II
Fencers must have a classification in the weapon of “C”, “D”, “E” or Unclassified at the time of the qualifying competition AND meet age requirements as above AND –
• Place in the top 25% of the current season’s Division Qualifying competition (see Chapter 2 .7 for detailed chart) (USFA BOD Sept 2006)
• Qualified for Division IA, if classification eligible. [Board of Directors, September 2008].

DIVISION III
Fencers must have a classification in the weapon of “D”, “E” or Unclassified at the time of the qualifying competition AND meet age requirements as above AND –
• Place in the top 25% (see Chapter 2.7 for detailed chart) of the total number of “D”, “E” or “U” fencers competing in the current season Division’s Division II Qualifying competition (when Division II and Division III qualifying competition held together) OR
• If separate Division III qualifying competition held by Division, then top 25% of the field
will qualify for Division III National Championships (USFA BOD Sept 2006) OR
• Qualified for Division II, if classification-eligible.. [Board of Directors, September 2008]."

Do you know whether he was treated as an auto-qualifier in the Div 2/3 qualifier (was he skipped when picking the top 25%)?

At the time Max signed up for the Div IA qualifiers (the Sectional Championships), he was classification-eligible for Div II and Div III (or let's say so anyway). If he won Div IA qualifiers, he would then be eligible for Div IA at SN (of course), and in the process be eligible for Div II and Div III was well, since he was classification-eligible at the time of entering the qualifiers for Div II and Div III (which all happen to be the same event as the Div IA qualifier).

[fdad]

If he won Div IA qualifiers, he would then be eligible for Div IA at SN (of course), and in the process be eligible for Div II and Div III was well, since he was classification-eligible at the time of entering the qualifiers for Div II and Div III (which all happen to be the same event as the Div IA qualifier).

I guess the underlying question is: When does a classification change occur? Is it: a) immediately after the tournament where the classification is earned, or b) when the USFA processes the change and posts the updated list. My understanding is that its "b".

[nahouw]

I guess the underlying question is: When does a classification change occur? Is it: a) immediately after the tournament where the classification is earned, or b) when the USFA processes the change and posts the updated list. My understanding is that its "b".

yes, it is b.