kids flicking in foil question

[joralemon]

Please explain to me (in simple terms) if flicking is a good or bad for kids to be doing and why. Thanks!

[theLuz]

teach the kids classical proper techniques. When they are exposed to flicks in their fencing exposure, they may indeed catch the virus and want to learn to do it, or they may be immune if you do a good job of teaching them the correct techniques. Good luck.

[rory]

For God's sake.

Being able to flick is just anothe rtool in the box. If the kids in question can do it, can score points with it, and don't do it when somewthing else is more appropriate, then great.

[noodle]

Please explain to me (in simple terms) if flicking is a good or bad for kids to be doing and why. Thanks!

replace "flicking" with anything, and it makes just as much sense. "fleching", "lunging", "parrying", etc..

if the child is capable of learning it physically and mentally, there's no good reason not to.

the concept that learning how to flick will kill a game is silly, provided you have a good coach. it will kill a game if you do it all the time, but so will ducking/counterattacking/etc.. do anything too much and your game is flat/dead.

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

teach the kids classical proper techniques. When they are exposed to flicks in their fencing exposure, they may indeed catch the virus and want to learn to do it, or they may be immune if you do a good job of teaching them the correct techniques. Good luck.

Holy sh1t! When did Evangelista learn how to use the interwebs?

[Purple Fencer]

It's good if they learn the proper technique....it's bad if they self-teach and end up clubbing you in the process....but that's the same for adults (escept they club harder....ouch)

[trafl926]

Holy sh1t! When did Evangelista learn how to use the interwebs?

obligatory....

[Adler]

teach the kids classical proper techniques. When they are exposed to flicks in their fencing exposure, they may indeed catch the virus and want to learn to do it, or they may be immune if you do a good job of teaching them the correct techniques. Good luck.

Flicking is a "correct" technique and should be taught. However it should be taught at the appropriate time in a fencers development what is wrong is when a fencer is taught tricks at the expense of proper technical development*.

Once the fencer has acquired** the basic technical level they should be taught the forms and varieties including those that deviate from the classical taking into account the abilities and personality of the fencer.


* I once witnessed a "coach" teach a 10 year old just off a 4 week beginner course to parry and riposte with jump and flick to back.

** By acquired in mean they can successfully apply the stroke in a competitive situation not just in a lesson in front of a coach.

[FrSpike]

teach the kids classical proper techniques. When they are exposed to flicks in their fencing exposure, they may indeed catch the virus and want to learn to do it, or they may be immune if you do a good job of teaching them the correct techniques. Good luck.

Am I the only one who detects a heavy whiff of irony and sarcasm from this post?

[muaddib]

I teach kids from 8-16 years old. As many have stated, flicks aren't "bad", but they should be taught in the proper place of a child development. First you want them to lead with the point. Point first always, and to hit "through" the target, not punching or pushing the point. This is difficult for many kids to learn. Until they understand this feeling, they shouldn't be flicking. But once a child can hit straight, disengage, beat, pris-de-fer, coupe, then sure they are ready to flick. Just make sure it doesn't dominate their game. It's much more important to be using their fingers to control the blade and to focus on hitting through the target. Flicks will come naturally when they are ready.

[theLuz]

I teach kids from 8-16 years old. As many have stated, flicks aren't "bad", but they should be taught in the proper place of a child development. First you want them to lead with the point. Point first always, and to hit "through" the target, not punching or pushing the point. This is difficult for many kids to learn. Until they understand this feeling, they shouldn't be flicking. But once a child can hit straight, disengage, beat, pris-de-fer, coupe, then sure they are ready to flick. Just make sure it doesn't dominate their game. It's much more important to be using their fingers to control the blade and to focus on hitting through the target. Flicks will come naturally when they are ready.

he states it better than I did. What he said.

[fdad]

It's good if they learn the proper technique....it's bad if they self-teach and end up clubbing you in the process....but that's the same for adults (escept they club harder....ouch)

So to ask the question a slightly different way, what should be done if a fencer starts experimenting with flicking using you or your kid as a practice dummy? My kid usually comes away from such bouts with a nasty set of bruises. Should a coach attempt to teach these kids the "right way" or should they try to keep them from attempting flicks until the coach feel the student is ready to learn.

[AdamH]

So to ask the question a slightly different way, what should be done if a fencer starts experimenting with flicking using you or your kid as a practice dummy? My kid usually comes away from such bouts with a nasty set of bruises. Should a coach attempt to teach these kids the "right way" or should they try to keep them from attempting flicks until the coach feel the student is ready to learn.

Hi there,

Probably what has been said previously still applies. Hard-hitting is hard-hitting. Punch-riposting after missing a huge parry, heavy counterattacking, over-excited lunging, etc might as well be the same thing here.

Flicking isn't a form of magic or a dark side jedi power, it's just fencing and loads of folk do it every day

edit: point of query regarding 'correct' form. If there is a perception that counterattacking is cheap and that 'correct' fencing phraseology ought to be applied, then killing distance on an opponent's flicky action is naughty. Always parry and riposte or take the touch and a flat blade over the shoulder?

If an opponent is counterattacking hard and direct in a physical game, take the simple parry and riposte and a jab in the ribs or attempt a technically adroit pris de fer?

Bof, no need to overthink this.

[dberke]

So to ask the question a slightly different way, what should be done if a fencer starts experimenting with flicking using you or your kid as a practice dummy? My kid usually comes away from such bouts with a nasty set of bruises. Should a coach attempt to teach these kids the "right way" or should they try to keep them from attempting flicks until the coach feel the student is ready to learn.

If you (or your kid) are the victim of someone practicing their flicks (or any other action) and it results in you getting bruised or hit harder than what is reasonable, just ask the fencer to stop. Tell them you'd rather not be their practice dummy.

If they don't stop, then stop fencing them. Simple.

Dan

[Purple Fencer]

So to ask the question a slightly different way, what should be done if a fencer starts experimenting with flicking using you or your kid as a practice dummy? My kid usually comes away from such bouts with a nasty set of bruises. Should a coach attempt to teach these kids the "right way" or should they try to keep them from attempting flicks until the coach feel the student is ready to learn.

I'd point out the problem to the coach and let him/her make the decision based on the individual's skills....some kids may be far enough along that they COULD learn to flick...others would need to improve their basics.

Either way, the flick should be taught by someone who knows how to make it be effective.

it's only one weapon in the bag....you can't be a one-trick pony with any skill set.

[Grasshopper]

Only terrorists flick. If you flick, you must be a terrorist.

[whiteandbluefencer]

If you (or your kid) are the victim of someone practicing their flicks (or any other action) and it results in you getting bruised or hit harder than what is reasonable, just ask the fencer to stop. Tell them you'd rather not be their practice dummy.

If they don't stop, then stop fencing them. Simple.

Dan

Hmmm, well, I was fencing one of my club members and this individual decided to use me to practice his flicks (we were fencing dry so who knows if they would have actually been registering). When he did a flick to my back it was quite painful, and I told him not to do that. He said that this was fencing, and had that sort of "you-should-get-over-it" attitude. I said that I understood that flicks were a part of fencing, but that you shouldn't do them on your clubmates if it's going to hurt/leave a welt every time (this was not the first time I'd had this conversation with him).

He basically blew-off what I said and then we continued the bout. The very next touch he flicks right to my back again. I have only ever left in the middle of a bout once, and this was it. I was so pissed and more importantly disappointed in my club member for not being more respectful of his club mate. I felt so badly afterward for leaving in the middle of the bout, and never want to do that again. But why would I continue a bout where I didn't feel safe, or respected by my opponent?

Now, this incident did not involve kids (we're both in college), but I wanted to point it out because it's on that edge that many of you seem to be describing. Flicks are not bad, but can be effective tools if done right. Just make sure that the kid knows there is the possibility they might hurt their opponent. If it's their club mate, and the club mate asks them to stop that, they might want to think about stopping. Clubs have fencing dummies for a reason. Course, tournaments and in club practices are two very different things...

[erooMynohtnA]

Maybe I'm not getting the whole story, and you were leaning forward giving him only back target to hit. He was mad at this typical WF action, so he was disinclined to hit as lightly as possible.

However, anyone who practices flicks (especially to the back) dry is a retard, plain and simple. You should have just punched him in the balls in your personal microcosm of eugenics.

Flicks are just actions, like a parry or a disengage. You wouldn't want your kid doing just disengages or just parries. You want them to have a variety. Some actions will be better or more effective than others, but you don't want them to favor one action or type of action to the point of disregarding the others.

[Superscribe]

If you're just practicing, and you tell the other person not to do something, and they keep doing it, then walking away is completely justifiable. I would have warned them first by accusing of them of being stupid and an imbecile for practicing flicks when it was dry, especially if they lacked the finesse to land it properly. Depending on my mood i might have started just whipping my blade flat against his/her chest and proclaimed them to be valid "because you never know".

However, whiteandblue, it's important to realize that in a tournament you don't have the option of asking the opponent to stop pounding you in your back. As a result, in practice, you might try to suck it up and do things to avoid being flicked in the back.

The desire to not be flicked is SOMETIMES a great way for kids to learn how to control distance.

[Lefty Belgian]

Please explain to me (in simple terms) if flicking is a good or bad for kids to be doing and why. Thanks!

Hi, Jor. I think you have gotten a nice set of pretty consistent responses on this one. I would point out that, particularly for youth fencers, teaching "tricks" (or at least more esoteric actions) prior to ingraining fundamentals often leads to an incomplete foundation. It's like teaching a kid to ride a bicycle without hands before he learns to ride a 2-wheeler with hands firmly on the handles. I also think that most young fencers cannot use this particular device properly either because of size (they are just not tall enough to make it work effectively) or because of a lack of mature coordination and/or strength.

Most importantly, while I agree that this move is an appropriate "tool in the tool box" per a prior post, it is nevertheless an action to be taught after fundamentals are firmly in place.

FYI, don't know if you noticed at UNH, but Daniel Holley uses this move on the little kids to great affect (4 of 5 touches on my son in the pools were on flicks).