Knees and braces

[Morale Officer]

I put this in a different thread because it fit in the other one, but it didn't. Those that have seen me fence recently (not that it's more than maybe 3 of yous) know that I've been having some more issues with my knees. I started wearing one brace again recently, but can't wear the other one because it doesn't fit under my knickers (it has stabilization bars and hinges). I was curious about a few things:
1) How many people do have knee issues?
2) What was your issue?
3) Do you currently wear a brace while you fence?
4) What kind?
On those notes, since I don't fence epee because of my knees (I'm Foil and Sabre), is it legal to put my brace over top of my knickers? It's a neoprene shell with the alluminum stabilization bars, hinges, and lots of velcro. My concern with putting it overtop is the hinges. And as I'm right handed, this particular brace is on my front leg. The one I wear on my left is only neoprene, so it fits under my knickers and isn't an issue.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I don't have knee issues, but I've known a LOT of people with knee issues, only some of them on my team.

After and before ACL injuries, they had braces. When they had the big ass metal hinge braces, they wore them over normal clothing, but got larger knickers to wear them when fencing.

The problem is that there are too many places for a blade to get stuck in, even though it's not target area. You might be able to get away with some sort of sleeve type thing you velcro OVER it, to minimize places a blade could get stuck...........

[Hauptman]

One option may be the Triplette fencing pants; they're not knickers but full length pants. I use them as an epee fencer for the extra coverage, and I never really liked knickers. They may be an option for you that would fit a knee brace underneath.

[Inquartata]

I1) How many people do have knee issues?

I don't know.

What was your issue?

My right ( forward ) knee was the result of an injury. During a lunge the toe of my foot stayed put but the heel slid out to the right, so essentially I found myself lunging with my foot sideways. The knee doesn't want to bend that way, but in this case it did. Not sure what the exact injury was because I didn't see a doctor, but symptoms were swelling, stiffness, instability and limited range of motion. Almost no pain after the first flash.

The left knee seems just to have started hurting and swelling up some after fencing. This may be the result of knee hyperextension; I am probably straightening the back leg too completely and too vigirously.

3) Do you currently wear a brace while you fence?

One on each knee.

4) What kind?

A plain neoprene brace with those flattened steel springs as struts ( one along each side ) on the right and a neoprene one with internal plastic hinged struts on the left. ( Knickers fit over both, albeit very tightly at first; now not so tightly. )

On those notes, since I don't fence epee because of my knees (I'm Foil and Sabre), is it legal to put my brace over top of my knickers?

I wouldn't think so, though I've seen it done in practice.

[Mac A. Bee]

...What was your issue? Do you currently wear a brace while you fence? What kind?...I'm Foil and Sabre), is it legal to put my brace over top of my knickers? It's a neoprene shell with the alluminum stabilization bars, hinges, and lots of velcro.

Foilist-strained ACL not operatively-corrected. Formerly wore DonJoy rear-knee brace on top of knickers but Ace-Bandaged. Switched to under-knicker McDavid 424 with hinges. Not legal to have anything on uniform that could catch point/blade.

[ladyofshalott99]

I think the question at large should rather be: of the people who have been fencing for several years, how many of you have knee issues?

A younger fencer--meaning, from childhood to the age of 20--is going to have significantly fewer knee problems just by the nature of their youth, as well as being determined by the number of years of their youth they have been fencing. By contrast, an individual who picked up the sport in their 20's (we'll say early 20's/college age), while still considered chronologically "young", might experience more wear over time. I would move to say that there are a significant number of current fencers in this age group that will resign from the sport in a few seasons/years (due to life's events taking priority), and as such, will experience a reduced risk of long-term knee issues due to fencing.

So the revised question comes into play. I myself have been fencing discontinuously for the last 10 years. Now that I am almost 30 (in two weeks, scary!), and am starting back into serious training/competition (also scary), I'm noticing more issues with my knees than I did a few years ago.

First off, there is that lovely grinding sound, the one that resembles the sound of sand being ground between teeth. It feels about that way in my knes as well. At this point it is a minor irritant, and as I'm also in a "training" mode and dropping weight, I know that this irritation will likely decrease in the coming months.

Compared to my boyfriend, who has been fencing for 12 years, continuously: The grinding in his knees is so pronounced that he must do his training/drills in a very noisy room due to the projected sound that the grinding elicits. To me, it sounds like a cross between marbles rolling in a glass jar and the sound of bubble wrap popping. To him, it's nails on a chalkboard. He's only having a minor issue with pain at this point, mostly due to extreme attention to proper form and footwork, and conditioning as well to strengthen the muscles of the leg (and surrounding the knee) to reduce the onset of further problems.

Second is the advancement of grinding to grinding with pain. I'm still too young to have arthritis problems, but I do have occasional sharp pain in my joints if I've put too much time(and too many miles!) into running during the week for my warmups. It's worth noting here that the running may play into the knee pain issue, and as a fencer, might be exactly the wrong thing to do being a possible causative factor.

Nevertheless, no matter what weapon is fenced, I would say that all of the fencers I've known older than myself, who have stuck with the sport for more than a couple of years, have eventually developed knee problems requiring anything from a brace to surgery to correct. Even some of my more competitive friends who are younger than me are starting to have problems that require some sort of physical therapy...so I suppose in the end, it depends on the person as well as the amount of time they've devoted to training and competition.

[Ordway]

I am a sabre fencer, 34 years old, have been fencing for 17 years, and wear knee braces.

My knee problems are partly congenital (my femur attaches to the tibia at more of an angle than it ought to, so it puts more wear on the cartilage of the knee) and partly overuse injury.

That said, I now experience much LESS pain than I did when I was in my 20s. I used to wear heavy neoprene braces but now I just wear the pull-up stretchy ones. I also wear ankle braces on both ankles, (lace-up, with struts in the side) partly to protect my ankles from further injury but also because it helps stabilize my entire leg.

What has made the difference:

1. Physical therapy. I absolutely tore myself up in the 2006-2007 year, including my knees. Turns out I had overuse injuries in both knees but no real damage; the knees themselves were stable. I learned proper strengthening exercises for my legs, to build up appropriate stabilizing muscle, and I learned that I must build rest time into my training schedule on a regular basis.

2. Good form. It is very easy to be careless about stance, overextension, etc, when your knees are 15 or 20 years old... but it matters more down the line.

3. I also take glucosamine supplements daily, and I think that has helped quite a bit for my particular knee problem (since my issue is cartilage wear).

4. Proper after-care, including icing and ibuprophin as needed.

5. Paying attention to my OVERALL treatment of my knees. One of the best things I did this fall was to realize that it was at work, not at fencing, that I was putting the majority of stress on my knees. I teach, which means I am on my feet most of the day; I realized that my knees would be hurting even before I arrived at practice. I switched to wearing "Earth Shoes" which have a dropped heel that is supposed to help posture and reduce back and leg pain. Wow! That has made a dramatic improvement. I now can arrive at practice pain-free after a day of work.

After a hard tournament or tough practice my knees often hurt, but it's bearable. Pain tolerance is a good thing, but only in the context that you're taking the best care of yourself that you can, and you know you're not further injuring yourself.

[Marquis1972]

I'm in my mid to late 30s and have started fencing 4 months ago with epee as my main weapon (right handed). Previously, I've taken Jiu Jitsu a bit over 20 years ago in the late 1980s til 1992 and have not had knee issues.

Recently, a week ago in practice, my right knee crackled and it was a funny feeling (not painful), so I had to stretch it a bit more. It was the first time I've had it happen to me. So eventually I bought a simple knee brace from Dick's Sporting Goods for $12 and it seemed to help bring circulation and keep the knee intact.

I think those who have studied martial arts in the past and pick up fencing later on probably won't have any knee issues because of the ability to get the form down right in less time and effort than those who have not. It's really about having good form and not lunging too much.

[Zilverzmurfen]

1) How many people do have knee issues?

Lots!

2) What was your issue?

Seventeen years of fencing has taken its toll on my knees. (Though in all honesty I've not been the best at cross-training to strengthen them. I blame no-one but myself.)

I have PFPS (Patello Femoral Pain Syndrome) and wear the bracers to protect my knees. The bracers gives a nice support and helps stabilise the joint. I actually don't have any pains whilst fencing, but afterwards I have the typical pains from this syndrome. Walking down stairs is the most painful.

3) Do you currently wear a brace while you fence?

Always on my left (ie. "front") knee and sometimes also on my other knee.

4) What kind?

I use the neoprene ones from Vulkan and Rehband. One is the kind with an opening for the patella, the other ones are "regular". (They're all the slip-on kind, no velcro or hinges or anything.)

[cmedalis]

-%<-snip-%<-
I started wearing one brace again recently, but can't wear the other one because it doesn't fit under my knickers (it has stabilization bars and hinges). I was curious about a few things:
1) How many people do have knee issues?
2) What was your issue?
3) Do you currently wear a brace while you fence?
4) What kind?
-%<-snip-%<-

I have patellar tendinitis in both knees and a long list of almost-but-not-quite trashed ligaments & tendons in/around my left (rear) knee.
I wear braces on both knees, on the right:
http://www.mcdavidusa.com/store/item...ARTMENT_ID=292
on the left:
http://www.mcdavidusa.com/store/item...ARTMENT_ID=290

I never had a problem with getting them under the knickers, but then again, I always get my knickers in an extra-baggy size

[Fechter1]

Note: all of this was before my current not-quite-voluntary break from fencing:

On the advice of several sports physicians, I had stopped wearing the neoprene type support braces. The reasoning behind that was that the compression from the brace itself was constricting the fine motor control (stabilization) musculature. Instead, I tried concentrating portions of my workouts to rebuilding these short support muscles.

I did start wearing an unloader brace (to relieve some of the stress on the damaged meniscus), but only during practice workouts (to relearn the proper
footwork mechanics), as the bulk of the brace would not fit under my whites. However, by that time, my knees had already suffered sufficient damage to necessitate the current exile.

Still hoping to be back on the strip about a year after my next surgery.