11-27-2002, 11:56 PM
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#141 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 698
| I stand by my earlier position: Domestic policy of a country is that country's business; they should be left alone on it. We may not agree, but neither have we the right or the ability to go around and change them all to our views. Then it would be the United States of Earth. Where we may, and frequently should, interfere is international relations, especially if they endanger another country, person, or group of people. Entity, I suppose.
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It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protestor to burn the flag. - Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC
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11-28-2002, 01:49 AM
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#142 | | Curmudgeon-in-Chief
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Somewhere in your nightmares!
Posts: 22,893
| Quote: Originally posted by Swordsman
I stand by my earlier position: Domestic policy of a country is that country's business; they should be left alone on it. We may not agree, but neither have we the right or the ability to go around and change them all to our views. Then it would be the United States of Earth. Where we may, and frequently should, interfere is international relations, especially if they endanger another country, person, or group of people. Entity, I suppose. | This is realpolitik boiled down to its bones, but alas, nothing is ever that simple in practice. The dividing line between the "purely internal matter" and one with international implications is often blurred, indistinct, mobile, camouflaged or artificial.....
Take illegal immigration. Surely, whether we choose to deport or imprison those who have crossed into our country is purely internal, right? But those immigrants sens millions of dollars home every year to impoverished relatives in their home countries, so if we deport or imprison them----we are adversely affecting the economies of those nations.
And---should the Nazis really have been allowed to go about finishing their Final Solution as long as Germany didn't invade Poland? Is our blockade of Cuba illicit? | |
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11-28-2002, 01:42 PM
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#143 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Dana Hall School, Wellesely, MA
Posts: 3,755
| Quote: Originally posted by Swordsman
I stand by my earlier position: Domestic policy of a country is that country's business; they should be left alone on it. We may not agree, but neither have we the right or the ability to go around and change them all to our views. Then it would be the United States of Earth. Where we may, and frequently should, interfere is international relations, especially if they endanger another country, person, or group of people. Entity, I suppose. | If you believe this, how can you possibly think that the U.S. isn't imperial? The U.S. leaves nobody's internal policies alone. we attempt to control every nation's actions, regardless of whether they threaten us or another country. During the cold war, our government toppled democratically elected governments in Latin America several times and installed despots who had been trained at the School of the Americas at Ft. Benning. What did these democratically elected governments do? Nothing. Why did we topple them? They were Socialist governments. This violates your above stated opinion (not to mention the stated moral and geopolitical positions of the vast majority of Americans), and clearly shows that the U.S. is an imperial power.
-m
Last edited by epeemike81; 11-28-2002 at 06:48 PM.
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11-28-2002, 01:44 PM
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#144 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Dana Hall School, Wellesely, MA
Posts: 3,755
| Quote: Originally posted by Inquartata
This is realpolitik boiled down to its bones, but alas, nothing is ever that simple in practice. The dividing line between the "purely internal matter" and one with international implications is often blurred, indistinct, mobile, camouflaged or artificial.....
Take illegal immigration. Surely, whether we choose to deport or imprison those who have crossed into our country is purely internal, right? But those immigrants sens millions of dollars home every year to impoverished relatives in their home countries, so if we deport or imprison them----we are adversely affecting the economies of those nations.
And---should the Nazis really have been allowed to go about finishing their Final Solution as long as Germany didn't invade Poland? Is our blockade of Cuba illicit? | Inq, don't get me started on our Cuba policy....
-m | |
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11-28-2002, 11:37 PM
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#145 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 698
| Quote: Originally posted by epeemike81
If you believe this, how can you possibly think that the U.S. isn't imperial? The U.S. leaves nobody's internal policies alone. we attempt to control every nation's actions, regardless of whether they threaten us or another country. During the cold war, our government toppled democratically elected governments in Latin America several times and installed despots who had been trained at the School of the Americas at Ft. Benning. What did these democratically elected governments do? Nothing. Why did we topple them? They were Socialist governments. This violates your above stated opinion (not to mention the stated moral and geopolitical positions of the vast majority of Americans), and clearly shows that the U.S. is an imperial power.
-m | You say so, man.
__________________
It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protestor to burn the flag. - Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC
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11-28-2002, 11:43 PM
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#146 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 698
| Quote: Originally posted by Inquartata
This is realpolitik boiled down to its bones, but alas, nothing is ever that simple in practice. The dividing line between the "purely internal matter" and one with international implications is often blurred, indistinct, mobile, camouflaged or artificial.....
Take illegal immigration. Surely, whether we choose to deport or imprison those who have crossed into our country is purely internal, right? But those immigrants sens millions of dollars home every year to impoverished relatives in their home countries, so if we deport or imprison them----we are adversely affecting the economies of those nations.
And---should the Nazis really have been allowed to go about finishing their Final Solution as long as Germany didn't invade Poland? Is our blockade of Cuba illicit? |
Of course everything is shades of grey. Theory must be applied to individual situations differently.
Immigrants - I don't see anything wrong with the international implications; everything has international consequences. I'm referring to things that are specifically and deliberately international.
Nazis - Harsh as it may sound, as long as they stayed within their own borders, it's their problem. We can't go around policing the entire world. The problem came when they started invading and annexing neighbors.
Cuban Blockade - Not familiar with it, unfortunately. Must find out what that is.
__________________
It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protestor to burn the flag. - Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC
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11-29-2002, 08:46 AM
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#147 | | Just Joined
Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tilburg, The Netherlands
Posts: 19
| Perhaps I should start with saying that I'm not an American. So maybe I don't understand you guys very well, and please tell me when I'm wrong!
When I watch television and see Bush on it I always think, oh no, with who does he want to fight now. Of course I understand that he wants to protect your country, and what happened on 11th september is certainly a thing that should never happen again (and shouldn't have happened in the first place). But, and tell me if I'm wrong, it seems to me that he's sometimes looking for a fight even when he doesn't know who his real enemy is. Of course I know the story about Bin Laden, but he was never found. And the whole Iraq-thing, isn't that a personal fight? (first his father and now he??)
Another thing I don't understand is why he's only focused on the middle east. Of course it's great that he wants to help the smaller countries and protect them from Saddam Hoessein (and other dictators), but what about the small countries near Russia?? Russia is in war rightnow with (I don't know the english name, sorry) Tsjetsjenie. Sometimes I get the idea that Bush can do whatever he wants in the middle east, as long as Poetin can do whatever he wants in Tsjetsjenie.
Maybe Bush should focus a little more on his own country. Everyday a lot of people are murdered for no reason. I don't know what kind of gun-policy you have, but doesn't that bother you??? That's only an example.
I know you (and your presidents) did great things for the whole world and I really appreciate it, but I think America is in danger when they go on with interfering in the middle east. So many nuclear weapens in the world, you (and the other countries with nuclear weapens) could destroy the whole world a few times. Am I the only person who's scared??
Oh, please don't get angry with me because I wrote this, I only want to understand the whole situation a little better. Oh, and keep in mind that english is not my native language, so if you don't understand something, or you want me to clearify a few things, feel free to send me a (private) message.
__________________
kus floretje
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11-29-2002, 09:37 AM
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#148 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Dana Hall School, Wellesely, MA
Posts: 3,755
| Quote: Originally posted by floretje
Perhaps I should start with saying that I'm not an American. So maybe I don't understand you guys very well, and please tell me when I'm wrong!
When I watch television and see Bush on it I always think, oh no, with who does he want to fight now. Of course I understand that he wants to protect your country, and what happened on 11th september is certainly a thing that should never happen again (and shouldn't have happened in the first place). But, and tell me if I'm wrong, it seems to me that he's sometimes looking for a fight even when he doesn't know who his real enemy is. Of course I know the story about Bin Laden, but he was never found. And the whole Iraq-thing, isn't that a personal fight? (first his father and now he??)
Another thing I don't understand is why he's only focused on the middle east. Of course it's great that he wants to help the smaller countries and protect them from Saddam Hoessein (and other dictators), but what about the small countries near Russia?? Russia is in war rightnow with (I don't know the english name, sorry) Tsjetsjenie. Sometimes I get the idea that Bush can do whatever he wants in the middle east, as long as Poetin can do whatever he wants in Tsjetsjenie.
Maybe Bush should focus a little more on his own country. Everyday a lot of people are murdered for no reason. I don't know what kind of gun-policy you have, but doesn't that bother you??? That's only an example.
I know you (and your presidents) did great things for the whole world and I really appreciate it, but I think America is in danger when they go on with interfering in the middle east. So many nuclear weapens in the world, you (and the other countries with nuclear weapens) could destroy the whole world a few times. Am I the only person who's scared??
Oh, please don't get angry with me because I wrote this, I only want to understand the whole situation a little better. Oh, and keep in mind that english is not my native language, so if you don't understand something, or you want me to clearify a few things, feel free to send me a (private) message. | hey, I agree with you whole heartedly.
-m | |
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