Epee Footwork/Stance

[fresfisher929]

Hey,

I'm an epee fencer who's been out of fencing for a couple of years. Before I took a break I reached a fairly decent level.. Before i stopped I reached a point where i'd mainly stopped doing traditional footwork, advances and retreats, and was mostly moving in the bounce-like manner that you see in most epeeists. However, in reflection I think I was just emulating the higher level competitors I was observing, instead of making a conscious decision to move like that.
So, what I would like to discuss is the non-traditional type of movement that almost all high level epeeists seem to adopt, the kind of shifting, wide, dynamic en garde that doesn't bear much very resemblance to the advance, retreat, and lunge that we all learn when we start fencing. Is there a good way to transition to moving that way, once you have a good enough sense of distance and timing? How do you/can you train to move that way? (is there any terminology to accurately describe that movement as well)

It seems to me that many of the footwork drills and games that i've used to learn distance are not usable anymore for this type of movement, can they be retooled?

[acaba]

If you watch high-level epee carefully, you will notice that most of the 'bouncing' is used for keeping distance and setting up the action. The wide en garde gives a good solid base for direction changes, and the "bounces" are good for controlling distance to a fine granulation.

When the final action comes, they actually use the "traditional" footwork: advance, lunge, adv. lunge, fleche, etc. Go check out youtube and type 'epee' in the search box and watch the first few that come up. Lots of touches scored on lunge and advance lunge, some scored on counter with retreat. Almost all of the touches are scored with the traditional footwork.

To answer the original question, I don't think you need to retool the drills.

To train that "bounce" movement, you can use keeping distance drills, but keep the distance control very tight as the leader moves slowly in and out. I don't think I ever specifically trained it, it just came after doing lots of footwork and bouting.

Aaron

[wwalkerjr]

I believe it makes the lower body targets a little more dynamic, contained and therefore a little more difficult to hit.
I know that when I don't bounce, it seems to invite opponents attacks to the (stationary)lower leg.

[piste off]

The wide en garde gives a good solid base for direction changes, and the "bounces" are good for controlling distance to a fine granulation.

Actually, the opposite is true.

R-

[RkfdFencer]

Actually, the opposite is true.

R-

Are you stating that in regards to the wide stance or the bouncing?

Bouncing has not hurt my ability to make good tight direction changes. I will use both bouncing and more traditional advance/retreat to play with distance in my bouts.

[piste off]

Are you stating that in regards to the wide stance or the bouncing?

Bouncing has not hurt my ability to make good tight direction changes. I will use both bouncing and more traditional advance/retreat to play with distance in my bouts.

Both.

Bouncing was "invented" to deal with the change of direction issue.

A wider stance is the cure for somebody that makes their steps too big, in other words for controlling distance to a finer granulation. Bouncing by itself does not do this, as you can make very large bounces back and forth.

R-

[rdg]

I fenced a Vet who beat me solidly. He used US "Navy" foot work, as he described it. This meant both feet perpendicular to the strip (and me) in a boxing like stance. At first I thought this was poor foot work, but after the bout he told me that was how he was trained.

Any analysis or comments are apprecitated, because, in truth, I was surprised.

Sam

[catwood1]

I fenced a Vet who beat me solidly. He used US "Navy" foot work, as he described it. This meant both feet perpendicular to the strip (and me) in a boxing like stance. At first I thought this was poor foot work, but after the bout he told me that was how he was trained.

Any analysis or comments are apprecitated, because, in truth, I was surprised.

Sam

YIKES! Maybe I'm being naive, but that just sounds fantastically dangerous!!!

Did he ever lunge??

[acaba]

YIKES! Maybe I'm being naive, but that just sounds fantastically dangerous!!!

Did he ever lunge??

Have you ever seen Seth Kelsey's footwork? Sounds just like what Sam described. Kelsey has both his feet pointing to the side of the strip, but he can still lunge. Check out his lunge at 2:15 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1oYJefpkA4 When he lunges, his front foot turns forward and he lands in a 'regular' lunge position. I've seen him fence this way for years, and am always amazed at his success with his ... 'unique' ... footwork.

Aaron

[Grasshopper]

I fenced a Vet who beat me solidly. He used US "Navy" foot work, as he described it. This meant both feet perpendicular to the strip (and me) in a boxing like stance. At first I thought this was poor foot work, but after the bout he told me that was how he was trained.

Well I hope the US Navy is not attacked by pirates then.

[Cookeit]

Have you ever seen Seth Kelsey's footwork? Sounds just like what Sam described. Kelsey has both his feet pointing to the side of the strip, but he can still lunge. Check out his lunge at 2:15 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1oYJefpkA4 When he lunges, his front foot turns forward and he lands in a 'regular' lunge position. I've seen him fence this way for years, and am always amazed at his success with his ... 'unique' ... footwork.

Aaron

Oh.. my.. gosh.

Now I know why everyone was calling him fat, seriously.

[DangerMouse]

I have to say he is one of the ugliest fencers of his level around. But he's also the prime example of how precision, strategy, and mental stability on the strip can be more important than looking good.

[Pieter]

Both.

Bouncing was "invented" to deal with the change of direction issue.

A wider stance is the cure for somebody that makes their steps too big, in other words for controlling distance to a finer granulation. Bouncing by itself does not do this, as you can make very large bounces back and forth.

R-

I thought the wider stance also lowers your center of gravity, allowing for faster direction changes? Especially for taller fencers.

[samh]

A lot of guys turn their front toe in a bit. From the Canadian team, Tars did it a lot. Many of the Italian epee fencers have their front toe turned in as well.

[FrSpike]

Yes, from watching the video posted above, I wouldn't say Kelsey's stance really has both feet perpendicular to the strip as described. He certainly has his front toe turned in, perhaps even more than most fencers whose footwork inclines that way, but not perpendicular.

[stillchris]

I fenced a Vet who beat me solidly. He used US "Navy" foot work, as he described it. This meant both feet perpendicular to the strip (and me) in a boxing like stance. At first I thought this was poor foot work, but after the bout he told me that was how he was trained.

Any analysis or comments are apprecitated, because, in truth, I was surprised.

Sam

I think the orientation of the feet 90 degrees from what most have indicated. A boxing stance would have the toes pointed towards the opponent, "feet perpendicular to the strip (and me) in a boxing like stance." emphasis on perpendicular to me.

Lots of fencers I have seen do this. Turn back foot forward that is.

--chris

[epeelion]

Lots of fencers I have seen do this. Turn back foot forward that is.

There are also lots of bad fencers out there.

In all seriousness, some high level fencers turn their foot in a bit, but never both toes pointed forwards completely. It makes no sense. No particular advantage, as far as I can tell.

When the final action comes, they actually use the "traditional" footwork: advance, lunge, adv. lunge, fleche, etc. Go check out youtube and type 'epee' in the search box and watch the first few that come up. Lots of touches scored on lunge and advance lunge, some scored on counter with retreat. Almost all of the touches are scored with the traditional footwork.

This strikes me as being completely correct.