Practice vs. Competition

[visudo]

In my fencing class today, my teacher brought up something I've been rolling over in my head for a while: The difference between being in "practice mode" and "competition mode", where "practice mode" involves much more experimentation and introspection, and "competition mode" involves doing whatever it takes to get the next touch.

My open question to the board is: What are some things you do in competition mode, but not practice? Vice-versa? How do you get yourself into the right mindset, and what are some succinct approaches that you take depending on the situation?

[AndrewH]

Practice isn't about winning bouts (sometimes it is, but not usually). You go to practice and you work out specific things. Keeping the right distance. Lots of parry ripostes. Making long attacks. Etc. It doesn't matter whether you win bouts or not, hell you could go to practice and lose every bout and still learn something valuable because you executed the one action you were working on correctly. The important thing about really benefiting from practice is to get over yourself, and realize that losing bouts doesn't matter. If you lose to someone who you know you can easily beat, who cares? You'd beat them at a tournament any day. Have confidence in yourself and don't think that a practice loss means you're worse than someone.

Competition is about winning bouts, and nothing else. A tournament isn't the time to break out new actions or take risks. Every touch counts in the pool, so you find the action that works early in the bout, and keep doing it til it doesnt work anymore. If you can beat someone 5-0 by doing a fake attack to parry riposte every time, do it. You wouldn't do that at practice because it doesn't help anyone. When it's DE time, you need to score 15 touches, whether they're pretty or ugly. Do what it takes, and only what it takes to get those 15. Don't switch your game plan in the middle of the bout just because you're up and you're bored. That's how you let the other guy make a comeback.

[Cookeit]

In DE's, if I am up quite a few touches, and SURE I will win,
I go into practice mode. I start experimenting with new attacks and stuff, or just have fun. :P

That's why whenever you see my results on AskFRED, few of my DE's are full blow-out wins, because I allow the other person to get some touches while I am messing around.

Plus, I don't like to demoralize someone by beating them without them getting any touches (unless it is a grudge-match or pool bout).

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by Cookeit

In DE's, if I am up quite a few touches, and SURE I will win,
I go into practice mode. I start experimenting with new attacks and stuff, or just have fun. :P

Aldo Montano. Wang Jingzhi. Las Vegas 2007. Look it up.

[Superscribe]

Wasn't that the 7 touch comeback in Sabre?

Lemme also add that AndrewH and Cookeit are probably fencing at different levels, and therefore different level of opponents. Above a certain level of competition, you just cannot underestimate the other guy, and you can't afford to waste the energy. On the record, I would absolutely adopt Andrew's stance toward competition.

There are however, occasional local tournaments where you know, you KNOW what's going to happen with only 30 seconds on the clock and a 10 point lead.

My actions are more purpose driven and much less technically sound. I'll make sacrifices iand go for speed at the expense of form if i think it's going to get me a touch.

In practice, you ever get into a close quarters remise remise session, look at your opponent and then just decide to stop? I do. Not in competition though. I've gotten LOTS of "free" touches by not stopping

I'm not going to get in your head if we're fencing for fun, but if i think i can get you psychologically, I can be a real brain ninja during tournaments.

holla dane cook.

[Cookeit]

Okay well, let me clarify.
By "trying new stuff" I didn't mean like doing a crazy backflip finishing with a flick to right above their butt crack.

More like doing useful actions, which I am still trying to build into my muscle memory.

Like riposting with a disengage into another line or something.
Good actions that I don't have the confidence to do when I am losing.

Also though, you have to admit.
There are some bouts you KNOW you will win.
Like fencing those newbies who lack confidence and basically just stand there.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by Cookeit

There are some bouts you KNOW you will win.
Like fencing those newbies who lack confidence and basically just stand there.

Nah, they're the ones to torture. Run them off the end of the strip repeatedly, etc.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by AndrewH

Practice isn't about winning bouts (sometimes it is, but not usually). You go to practice and you work out specific things.

To be more precise, it isn't about winning bouts for you. On the other hand, it IS for me, and it's worked out pretty well...

There are few strategies that qualify as universals.

I almost always try to win. This does not exclude "working on things". The two can coexist.

Competition is about winning bouts, and nothing else.

Also rather too doctrinaire for my tastes. I DO learn things in competitive bouts. That you separate the two modes completely does not mean that that is the only valid method, or that it should be the default...

A tournament isn't the time to break out new actions or take risks.

???

You should ask Ivan Lee about "taking risks" in competition.

I agree on trying out new stuff, though. Usually it's a bad idea.

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

I almost always try to win. This does not exclude "working on things". The two can coexist.

Yes, they can. And obviously no one practices and makes sure to lose on purpose. But let's say I'm at practice, it's 14-14, and I know for sure that this fencer will attack me with his hand way back, and it'll be an easy attack in prep for me. I've also dedicated tonight to taking parries in simultaneous. It hasn't been working that great, that's why it's 14-14 right now. What do I do on the last touch? If winning was my goal, I'd take the attack in prep. If improving my parry was my goal, I'd take the risk and go for the 5 in simul. That's what I'm talking about, obviously you fence hard in practice, but just winning bouts shouldn't be the ultimate goal, since that will often preclude you from practicing riskier actions that you can eventually use down the road.

Originally Posted by Inquartata

You should ask Ivan Lee about "taking risks" in competition.

Time and a place. If it's a close bout, then I'm staying with the actions that work. If I'm losing by 4 or 5 touches, then sure, what could I possibly lose by going for the jump parry 2?

[samh]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

To be more precise, it isn't about winning bouts for you. On the other hand, it IS for me, and it's worked out pretty well...

There are few strategies that qualify as universals.

I almost always try to win. This does not exclude "working on things". The two can coexist.

I don't really agree with any of the above, except possibly the bit about few strategies qualifying as universals.

I don't really think that trying to win and working on things can co-exist. "Giving it 100% effort" or "going all out" can co-exist with "working on things" but really trying to win would necessarily preclude the use of actions that you aren't as good at. When "working on things" usually these are the exact actions that you are using - for example, things you've done in lessons and are trying to incorporate into your fencing.

[Tomas N]

I think this is a great question. When going to tournaments, I often find myself in practice mode when I should be in competition mode. Things that help me make the switch the day of the tournament include not having students to worry about, not having to referee as well as fence, listening to music to pump me up, analyzing opponents' games, watching opponents warm up, and visualization techniques. Prior to the competition, I'll go into competition mode at the last couple of practices, watch high level fencing dvds, and generally try to think "competitively" about fencing for a few days beforehand.

Tomas

[bigfirststep]

I find that I must stay in competition mode for the entire competition. If I switch to practice mode I find it really difficult to get back into a competition mindset later on. So if I am ahead I will just try to finish the bout and move on. If I am behind by a lot and know I will lose the bout, I may start experimenting, because there is nothing to lose, and I may want to practice some things that may come in handy in the future.

[Fechter1]

Some good information here for newer fencers.

Practice mode and competition mode are two different entities. Or they should be, if you want to maximize your training.

In practice mode, you are trying to work on specific actions, modifying them slightly to make them work within a specific scope.
Competition mode, you're tyring to win, pure and simple. Your tactical repqeroire is not likely to get as much of a workout in this mode, as you are trying to keep to actions that ar going to work against a given opponent.

Ironically, at times it is necessary to practice competition mode during your bouting time, especially if you have problems achieving or maintaining comp mode during tournaments.

[Lady Quindecim]

A while back there was a thread about "practising" during pre-competition warm-up bouts.
Some of the posts here reminded me of some of those conversations.
Some of the same posters are here.

Just saying.

[parrythis]

Some folks that I fence with have noticed that there is a different psychological level of intensity during competition. In order to allow our fencers to practice being in that mode, we periodically hold mock tournaments with whoever is at practice. We do pool bouts and a DE tableau. Doing this does not in and of itself create the competition level of intensity, but it does provide a tournament-esque environment in which the competitors can practice getting their game face on if they choose to.

[Lady Quindecim]

Yes, I assumed that this was pretty common. This satisfies the need to develop technique and train our body, then train our mind for that "win" drive. Like, there are private lessons, that are very different from what one would do on a strip, and there are things we practice "at home" that are again different. I do not think that only thinking that when one thinks/does fencing actions, that the only psychology is to "win" but rather to "improve."

or some such. You get the idea, I think/hope. Someone else can say it better.

[Superscribe]

I think what our 15 year old lady is trying to say is: Winning is awesome. Developing techniques for winning is like trying to drive a train. Private lesson's shouldn't be taken on a strip, but instead they should be given at home, because they are different. Don't think, just do. Only then can you improve. And then you will win, because it's only psychology, that it's science, so duh. Like totally. Am i doin it rite?


i jest.

[wwalkerjr]

Originally Posted by AndrewH

Practice isn't about winning bouts (sometimes it is, but not usually).
Competition is about winning bouts, and nothing else.

Golubitsky opined that the point of pools and DEs was to win and advance with as little expenditure of energy as possible. You just never know how much you will need later, if you make it to the finals.
I had a recent experience where I had a lead of 5 touches in a DE and I was the aggressor through the first periods. I waited for my opponent's attacks in the final period, figuring I could parry-riposte or counterattack (epee). Surprisingly, my opponent continued to wait for my attack, which never came. Final score 6-1.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by samh

I don't really think that trying to win and working on things can co-exist. "Giving it 100% effort" or "going all out" can co-exist with "working on things" but really trying to win would necessarily preclude the use of actions that you aren't as good at.

Who said that "trying to win" is synonymous with "going all out"? Especially against opponents with whom there is a...er...skill disparity, "trying to win" can mean anything from that to "try not to screw up too badly while dozing through the bout"...

[Joe biebel]

It is difficult for me (a competetive fencer) to not try to win every touch and every bout, and to just stay with a plan while training. I have to say that my fencing has improved markedly in recent years, because my discipline in training and staying with my daily goals in bouting has improved, even though, physically, I am of course getting older, yet my results have been very consistant. The original posters coach is right and I just wish I had figured this out a long time ago.

I now try to teach this concept to even my beginner classes. In fact, I can't think of any level fencer that would not benefit from embracing this idea.