Strongest divisions?

[Enh4nc3d5p4rk]

I was browsing over the Div1 MS results from NAC-C and noticed the majority of the top 16 and even top 32 being from Metro NYC. From what I've read, Southern California [bay area], is the top division. However, seeing as all of our Olympic fencers [if I'm not mistaken], go to Manhattan Fencing Center, I'd say Metro NYC is the strongest division.

Thoughts?

[thisissparta514]

The Bay Area is not in Southern California.

Also, it is in no way true that all of our Olympic fencers go to MFC (though some do go to other NYC clubs).

[ysbadadden]

The men's sabre squad prepared at MFC.

But how do you determine the strongest division, even in any one weapon/gender? Senior points? -- points in Seniors, Juniors, Cadets -- points in all age categories? Total number of fencers? And why do you want to know? -- move to an area to train ... or just bragging rights?

[Matt]

However, seeing as all of our Olympic fencers [if I'm not mistaken], go to Manhattan Fencing Center, I'd say Metro NYC is the strongest division.

Except for those WS gold and silver medalists who fence out of Portland, OR.

[epeelion]

From what I've read, Southern California [bay area], is the top division.

Metro NYC is the strongest epee division, particularly in men's epee. Really no question. However, no one goes to MFC. Because MFC is a sabre club.

Foil is also extremely strong in Metro NYC.

Sabre is more scattered, for sure.

This is not to say other divisions aren't strong, but I'm not sure you can say the bay area is the strongest fencing area. Purely in terms of amount and quality of training, NYC can't be beat.

MY DIVISION IS BETTER THAN YOURS!!!!!

[KD5MDK]

You division has far fewer lawsuits than a nearby one. Can't you keep up?

[whtouche]

Except for those WS gold and silver medalists who fence out of Portland, OR.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't sada jacobson take the silver in WS? She does not fence out of portland, OR, as far as I know.

[Meteoric Iron]

Metro NYC is the strongest epee division, particularly in men's epee.

MY DIVISION IS BETTER THAN YOURS!!!!!

When the moon is full, waning is inevitable. I Ching

[AndrewH]

I was browsing over the Div1 MS results from NAC-C and noticed the majority of the top 16 and even top 32 being from Metro NYC. From what I've read, Southern California [bay area], is the top division. However, seeing as all of our Olympic fencers [if I'm not mistaken], go to Manhattan Fencing Center, I'd say Metro NYC is the strongest division.

Thoughts?

MS is highly concentrated in the NYC area. There's MFC, PWF, and the NYAC. There are strong sabre fencers from other divisions (like SoCal, which is certainly NOT the bay area), but they tend to end up in NYC eventually- Jason Rogers, James Williams, etc. Also, some MS fencers are registered as either New Jersey or Hudson-Berkshire, but still fence at a Metro club. For example, I (a MS fencer) am a member of the NJ division but fence at the NYAC. So you probably wouldn't want to count them as members of the Metro division. Regardless, Metro is without a doubt the strongest division for MS.

It's different for other weapons. Like someone already mentioned, Oregon is the strongest division for WS. ME is also concentrated in NYC, and as for foil, I think Northern California is one of the strongest divisions.

[counterattack]

It's different for other weapons. Like someone already mentioned, Oregon is the strongest division for WS. ME is also concentrated in NYC, and as for foil, I think Northern California is one of the strongest divisions.

I'd dispute the "ME is also concentrated in NYC" assertion. That used to be very true, but not so much these days. NYC may still be the strongest but certainly isn't a concentration of the best fencers. Just more concentrated than anywhere else. In the younger generation it is even less true.

[jjefferies]

I was browsing over the Div1 MS results from NAC-C and noticed the majority of the top 16 and even top 32 being from Metro NYC. From what I've read, Southern California [bay area], is the top division. However, seeing as all of our Olympic fencers [if I'm not mistaken], go to Manhattan Fencing Center, I'd say Metro NYC is the strongest division.
Thoughts?

As mentioned previously you've munged Northern and Southern California together. Further each of those areas has several divisions in it. Speaking of Northern California, there are three divisions two of which, Central California and Mountain Valley, were split out of Northern California. Historically done to permit more fencers to qualify for SN, distances involved, and other more silly reasons. I wouldn't try to address Southern California's situation but suspect it is similar. So the largest of the three Northern California Divisions has about 570 members, Central 329, Mtn Valley 166 members. Contrast that with NYC which alone has 618 members almost within walking distance of each other and if you add in its near if not so dear neighbor New Jersey at 1697 you might consider a disparity in size alone. Also allow that in Northern California there is a 5 hour driving time separation between the northern most and southern most parts of those three sister divisions.

Then there is the minor matter of historical development. From the beginning of the US, NY has had the advantage of being one of the first locations to receive new talent, coaching and fencers. My understanding is that up until the war of northern aggression, NYC was #2, after New Orleans in the US in terms of quality of its fencers etc. And with the end of that conflict, an end which I am given to understand which was not brought about by skill or adroitness of combat but simply by shear numbers and logistics, NYC likewise laid claim to being #1 in the US. A claim which it has held for some time.

So going back to the OP's original question. It's more a matter of NYC scrabbling to maintain its place against the upstarts from the rest of the country. And yes California, north and south, is an rising presence but not a dominating one as NYC has been. Also, My understanding is that Texas is another one of the upcoming centers of fencing excellence.

Best regards

[lovesabre]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't sada jacobson take the silver in WS? She does not fence out of portland, OR, as far as I know.

Jacobson is from Nellya Fencers out of Atlanta, GA

[AndrewH]

I'd dispute the "ME is also concentrated in NYC" assertion. That used to be very true, but not so much these days. NYC may still be the strongest but certainly isn't a concentration of the best fencers. Just more concentrated than anywhere else. In the younger generation it is even less true.

I'm not saying that it's concentrated to the degree that MS is, but the level of epee fencing at the NYAC is above that of any other club in the country.

[fluidfencer]

I remember someone preparing a simple table that calculated something like top-16 fencers per USFA members in each division. That can really reshuffle things since smaller divisions are not necessarily at a disadvantage. We are then measuring how effectively a particular division is advancing their fencers.

Of course, you have to be careful with statistics. Numbers can be sliced, diced and otherwise manipulated to show just about anything.

I've observed the overall level/quality of fencing has increased, which won't necessarily be reflected in the data.

[darius]

It's hard to compare to NYC - they have a numbers advantage, and end up attracting wannabe elite fencers from all over the NY-NJ-CT area, and even places all over the country. (Note: Although NYAC is a consistently strong epee club, you're not necessarily likely to see their very best athletes at NYAC on a day-to-day basis.)

When I was looking to move, I was comparing places I'd like to coach (high-level foil) with places my wife would want to fence (high-level sabre) and came up with the following:

Foil:
NYC
Philly
SF Bay
Portland

Sabre:
NYC
Philly
Portland
LA
Sacramento

Portland stood out to me, mostly because of the strength in all 3 weapons compared to the size of the city. (No sales tax + great agricultural base + great cultural attractions + cheap rent? Sign me up!)

It really depends on what you want to do with this data -- if it's an academic exercise to figure out which division is strongest, it's hard to argue with Metro NYC because of the numbers game and depth in all 3 weapons. If you're thinking of moving someplace and involving fencing in your calculus, you'd do well to consider other factors, such as the environment of your potential club(s), coach availability, etc. There are excellent coaches in some very strange places.

darius

[hello?]

Jacobson is from Nellya Fencers out of Atlanta, GA

But trained for the Olympics in NYC, if I am not mistaken.

[nyacfencing]

As Secretary of the Metropolitan Division, let me just say that it is and has always been my belief that all fencers across this great and mighty nation of ours have every opportunity equally afforded to them by the constitution brought forth by our forefathers to pursue their dreams of becoming great fencers. And that for those that do fight long and hard to persevere and join the top echelons of our sport, you are welcome to join any of the mighty clubs in our division. To the rest of you, say hello to the governator for me...

[CoachOfDeath]

Metro- It's not just a division. It's a section.

[KD5MDK]

Feeling homesick?


I hope they never accidentally schedule their Div II and Div IA qualifiers on top of each other...

[fdad]

Feeling homesick?


I hope they never accidentally schedule their Div II and Div IA qualifiers on top of each other...

Accidentally? For women:
Saturday, 3/28: U19 checkin @ 8:30, U16 @ 11:00, Y14 @ 13:30
Sunday. 3/29: D1A @ 8:30, D2/3 @ 12:30.

An ambitious little 13 year old can fence in 5 qualifiers and potentially qualify for 6 events over two days. I guess they might get a little HW in if they don't get double stripped.