Sabre Passe Avant

[Superscribe]

So lets say I'm a righty fencing sabre. For some reason I back pedal and stop such that my right foot is behind my left foot.

1) If i start advancing as a lefty (humor me) am I now forbidden to bring my right foot up front? Do I have to attack with my left foot forward?

2) Am i allowed to criss cross my feet in the air, so long as there is no indication my back foot has passed forward of my front foot when i hit the ground?

Love and Peace

[peet]

So lets say I'm a righty fencing sabre. For some reason I back pedal and stop such that my right foot is behind my left foot.

1) If i start advancing as a lefty (humor me) am I now forbidden to bring my right foot up front? Do I have to attack with my left foot forward?

This is more than silly, but if forced to answer such a question, I'd say the determination of which is the front foot and which is the back foot would be determined by which hand you're holding the weapon with, so you couldn't "start advancing as a lefty" all of a sudden like that. You're still a righty.

2) Am i allowed to criss cross my feet in the air, so long as there is no indication my back foot has passed forward of my front foot when i hit the ground?

No. The rear foot may not cross the front during fencing. Let's keep it simple, eh?

-p

[Redblade]

What a great question. I like it.

Reminds me of this gem: "If I cram myself into a refrigerator to see if the light turns off when the door closes, will I be able to get out again to report the results of my experiment?"

If a saber fencer ends his retreat in a crossed-leg position, anything that follows is probably a moot point.

[Superscribe]

The idea of back pedaling very quickly and then stopping suddenly is not foreign to sabre. I'm also fairly confident that there may be instances, in your stopping, you have your dominant foot behind your non-dominant foot (right foot "behind" your left foot if you are a righty).

What things are called and when they apply could be important because stopping in this position sets you up for weird, off-hand fleche.

[Allen Evans]

For gods sake, why wouldn't you recover your foot back to a normal on guard and then advance or retreat without breaking any rules? That's what good fencers do. (I'm sure that there will now follow five or six replies trying to think up reasons why a fencer wouldn't want to finish the cross backwards -- I won't see them, because I'm not going to read this thread again ).

I agree with Peet, a VERY silly question.

AE

[IanSerotkin]

What if instead of passe avant, I try an en passant? Does my opponent get to capture my pawn? For that matter, what's the rule regarding castling in epee?

[Superscribe]

lol, i mean, you never know. Let me now apologize for my ridiculous question.

However, aside from the absurdity and pedantry of my original post, I only have to dig at the origins of the "don't turn your back on your opponent rule" to point out how the improbable can manifest itself.

It's good that we have fencing experts to dismiss silly notions, or else they may develop to be real problems. Ha.

"I'm sorry" is the same as "I apologize"... except when you're at a funeral.

[KD5MDK]

The answer I've always seen is no. Your front foot is determined by which is in front of the other at the moment, and you would need to cross backwards again before you could bring your rear foot in front of your front foot.

[Grasshopper]

Is this like when someone tells you to put your thumbs together on the edge of a table and then they balance a hot cup of coffee on them?

[Redblade]

Is this like when someone tells you to put your thumbs together on the edge of a table and then they balance a hot cup of coffee on them?

Yes! Exactly like that ... except for the thumbs, and coffee, and table.

[smellofellow]

While i don't think it makes sense to try and advance lefty, i can imagine a situation where your opponent finishes an attack while your right foot is behind your left foot and wanting to capitalize immediately on your opponents mistake, you perform a lefty lunge. i don't see anything wrong with that and in fact could be useful.

[annacattiva]

While i don't think it makes sense to try and advance lefty, i can imagine a situation where your opponent finishes an attack while your right foot is behind your left foot and wanting to capitalize immediately on your opponents mistake, you perform a lefty lunge. i don't see anything wrong with that and in fact could be useful.

Things wrong with it:
-it's illegal
-you would first have to untangle your legs and rotate your body before lunging
-there's a reason we generally try to keep the hand with the weapon in front of us rather than behind us
-what if you miss? Now you're stuck in the most untenable position I could imagine for continuing to fence. Not that you'd be continuing, since you would have just been carded, because ...
-it's illegal

Reasons you wouldn't be in that position anyway:
-if you're running backwards, crossing over, as fast as you can, it's unlikely that you'll be able to change directions with your right foot behind without injuring yourself. Unless of course you've been practicing this move.
-this isn't a position you should ever be IN, it's a position that at most you might go THROUGH.

Reason I would love to see someone try:
-laughter is good for the soul

Anna

[Superscribe]

i was prepared to take some flak for this, but certainly not from this angle.

You're telling me that fencing sabre, you've never backpedaled and stopped, facing your opponent, with your front foot behind and your back foot in front, and then wanted to go forward immediately? I mean if the distance and timing is right, the distance and timing is RIGHT, and you need to captialize on the attack. This isn't an acrobatic feat requiring the coordinatin of a greek god. this is simply running forward.

for those of you who don't have greek god status:
from the position i'm talking about (left leg forward, right leg back, facing the opponent like your about to run at them) you simply transfer weight from right foot forward to left foot, then step forward with right foot and finish in a flunge. What i'm hearing is that action is illegal? That means i'm forced by the rules of sabre to make sure I'm in a proper en guarde position before i start moving forward?

[Inquartata]

I agree on all counts, except the one about it being illegal. I can't find a rule which prevents it, unless you want to call it an abnormal fencing action.

Let me alter the OP's description of the action slightly.

With a yellow card already, you retreat with passe arriere's until you end up with your left toe on the back edge of the strip and your right foot clean off. Any advance with your right foot will now necessitate a cross and earn you a penalty; an attempt to bring your left foot back behind your right will also award your opponent a touch by taking you off the strip with both feet. Advancing lefty is now about the ONLY thing you can do...

[nahouw]

kudos for you for bringinig the right scenario.

I agree on all counts, except the one about it being illegal. I can't find a rule which prevents it, unless you want to call it an abnormal fencing action.

Let me alter the OP's description of the action slightly.

With a yellow card already, you retreat with passe arriere's until you end up with your left toe on the back edge of the strip and your right foot clean off. Any advance with your right foot will now necessitate a cross and earn you a penalty; an attempt to bring your left foot back behind your right will also award your opponent a touch by taking you off the strip with both feet. Advancing lefty is now about the ONLY thing you can do...

[tchwojko]

I mean if the distance and timing is right, the distance and timing is RIGHT, and you need to captialize on the attack.

I really can't imagine that the timing and distance are right if you've just backpedaled and stopped with your feet the wrong way. Do better footwork and don't get in that situation.

I can't imagine it being right in any weapon.

[Inquartata]

You could say the same thing about going off the back of the strip...but if Olympians do it occasionally then "Improve your footwork" is possibly not sufficient advice...

In any case, the question is "What if X happens?", not "How do I keep X from happening?" I suggest that the latter begs for a separate thread...

[counterattack]

For all you grumpy fencers bashing this question, which is at least an interesting corner of the rules, maybe you can relax and participate in the discussion and just think of how much satisfaction you'll have later when some noob posts this same question next year and you can smugly blast them: "for god's sake noob :rolls eyes: we already discussed that, have you ever heard of the search function?".

It sounds to me like in saber the "rear" foot first lunge might be the right answer if your shoulders are already pretty much square and the opponent is in somewhat close distance and somehow hasn't already scored. You'd want to take ROW as quickly as possible and so you'd need to just go with some sort of "rear" foot first flungey leap.

-philip

[Superscribe]

I really can't imagine

I can't imagine it

This. THIS is where we're having trouble. I thought by keeping my description general with the original post there would be more room for people to come up with situations that were relevant.

props to the curmudgeon

[tchwojko]

This. THIS is where we're having trouble. I thought by keeping my description general with the original post there would be more room for people to come up with situations that were relevant.

props to the curmudgeon

Honestly, it's not so much curmudgeonness (though I'll admit I get grumpy). It's that I think there are better things to work on. The simple stuff done as perfectly as possible is much more effective. Okay, maybe it is curmudgeonly.