Watch out

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Thanks! Incremental news is still news.

[bigdawg2121]

OK, here's a suggestion: the Parent Committee needs to serve as more than a glorified distributer of FAQ information about buses in Budapest to other parents.

Several of us...ahhh....activist parents were a little disconcerted when the new Chair of the committee wrote:
"I would like to see this committee stick with advising, communicating with,
and in general, helping other parents. As many of you have written, this sport can be complicated and intimidating to new parents - whether they are new to a club and the sport or new to international competitions. I really don't think we should get involved with USFA policy or decisions." (emphasis added)

Instead, I urge you and others in the administration to encourage the committee to solicit policy ideas from the pool of parents who have their kids involved in fencing.

You know, the overglorified FAQ committee might be useful to, well, a MUCH larger portion of the USFA and reach a significantly larger group of of the USFA parentage withe pertinent information.

I know that information about what to expect and how to navigate the different aspects of USFA competition would have been appreciated by my parent when we arrived to our first NAC accompanied only by two other families in the same boat.

I know my parent would have felt much more at ease sending me to Germany for my first JWC if an FAQ on airports, trains, shuttles and the like had been available. As it was I traveled by my lonesome and to this day have yet to hear back from any of the national coaches, parents, or other US fencers I emailed asking for info on transportation, rooms, or the like. (Thanks to Vilmos Szabo, the organizing coach, for answering my emails, providing information, and caring that I arrived safely).

I know that given the choice, my parent would have loved that type of FAQ information which would have made life easier and allowed some peace of mind rather than being asked to give some policy input on squad fees and other things she might not have background in.

The needs and concerns of elite parents are not the concerns of all parents. The parents committee might be better off if structured to provide as much utility as possible to all levels of USFA parentage.

Besides, it seems silly to me to think that the USFA is going to establish and support a parents' group whose goal is to agitate and "reform" the activities of its other committees. That type of advocacy should take place outside of the USFA's own administrative stucture even though the membership may overlap.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Don't get me wrong, BD, the FAQ for parents is a valuable resource. By all means, let's get that ramped up, although by now much of that kind of information is already encased in various FAQs here, on the USFA site and elsewhere.

Part of the Parent's Committee function should be to collect, refine and then disseminate that kind of information in as easy to find location as possible.

But just as the FOC and HP and other committees report to the President on the issues affecting that particular constituency--so that cogent policy decisions can be made--so should the Parent's Committee.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Don't get me wrong, BD, the FAQ for parents is a valuable resource. By all means, let's get that ramped up, although by now much of that kind of information is already encased in various FAQs here, on the USFA site and elsewhere.

Part of the Parent's Committee function should be to collect, refine and then disseminate that kind of information in as easy to find location as possible.

But just as the FOC and HP and other committees report to the President on the issues affecting that particular constituency--so that cogent policy decisions can be made--so should the Parent's Committee.

Emphases in bold by me.

Without having any inside info, I have a hunch that the Constituencies and Committees do not match perfectly. The least few years, a significant minority of those fencers who have represented USA as Senior National Team members have actually been legal minors, and several other have been so young so that - while not legal minors - they still are dependent on their parents, economically and otherwise.

Simmply by being Natl. Team members, those fencers should be directly of interest to the HP. But the HP also has do deal with several fencers of adult (in every sense of the word) age, fencers who do not pose the specific concerns of young ones. It is at least thinkable that HP members (subconciously at least) have thought more about issues which are specific to all top-level fencers, and only to them, in contrast to young-specific issues. If that indeed has been the case, one can assume that some issues have been dropped in the cracks. Meanwhile, it seems reasonable to assume that the Parent´s Committee members have thought less about those minor fencers, since "they were on the HP plate".

There is a significant amount of conjencture on my part above, note that I have tried to write it clearly as such.

If the Parent´s Committee indeed have been doing less than what can be expected from them, a solution might be to split its jurisdiction according to two obvious constituencies:
1. Parents of minor fencers who already are in a Natl. team, and those who have a good shot of being there in the short-to medium time frame.
2. Parents of all other minor fencers - the great majority.

It might be a good idea to limit the Parent´s Committee´s responsibilities to the latter group, with HP taking over group #1. In that way, the largest divergence in the constituency served by any one committee is lessened. Less internal disparity makes for easier governing.


Happy New Year!

Peter Gustafsson

[Inquartata]

Thanks! Incremental news is still news.

How about Inqremental news?

[dcmdale]

Perhaps a lawyer should a send a nice note on your behalf and get this issue on the record in case this tampering later escalates to slander.

I would reiterate Ancient One's good advice. A scholarship like that is quite valuable from a purely monetary perspective and worth defending. I am not licensed in either OR or NC, so I am not going to offer any specific advice, but if I were involved, I would much rather deal with this case where a stern letter might stop the bad behavior, rather than during an administrative NCAA hearing or in the context of a lawsuit later. Much cheaper and simpler.

Talking to a lawyer and the USFA route are not mutually exclusive. Quite likely, they are complementary. The USFA, even with a good BoD, has conflicting interests: on the one hand, as Ed's employer (at least in one role), they are a potential defendant, and will act in their own interest. On the other hand, they are also charged with promoting the sport and a public fight would be counterproductive to that goal. In that sense, it would be in their best interest to mediate between you--whether or not they believe your allegations. The presence of a lawyer can "encourage" them to see the value of mediating while preserving your right to sue, if necessary.

Also, activities that might be actionable in a legal environment might not be considerations in a USFA administrative action and the other way around. Interfering with the scholarship could well be something that could be sued upon, for instance, but not something that the USFA can do anything about administratively.

I don't suggest a legal approach very often and I would hope that your concerns can be resolved without lawsuits, but involving a lawyer now might well be the best way to not need one later.

[heretic]

Even after my daughter has been "removed" (kicked out) from her former club, and her former coach fired, the manager is still trying to make things difficult for her by contacting her college and appears to be fishing for transgressions that will make my kid ineligible for her wonderful college scholarship. Considering she has told me to my FACE about my daughter's alleged "ineligibility" and her information is just PLAIN WRONG, hasn't stopped her.

The Momster

If, as you assert, her information about your daughter's ineligibility is "just PLAIN WRONG," you have no apparent cause for concern, as no harm will be done vis a vis her NCAA standing. If anything, such pointlessly malicious behavior will ultimately reflect badly on the reputation of the accuser.

Of course, if there were eligibility violations (and Lord knows, the NCAA has an overabundance of rules that have no real relevance but none-the-less apply equally to amateur sports like fencing), you would have no cause of action against the accuser because they were stating facts.

Either way, the truth will ultimately set someone free.

[dcmdale]

If, as you assert, her information about your daughter's ineligibility is "just PLAIN WRONG," you have no apparent cause for concern, as no harm will be done vis a vis her NCAA standing. If anything, such pointlessly malicious behavior will ultimately reflect badly on the reputation of the accuser.

Of course, if there were eligibility violations (and Lord knows, the NCAA has an overabundance of rules that have no real relevance but none-the-less apply equally to amateur sports like fencing), you would have no cause of action against the accuser because they were stating facts.

Either way, the truth will ultimately set someone free.

Unfortunately, false accusations (whether honest or vindictive) can create their own issues. I think that anyone who has been found innocent in a criminal case will tell you about lingering suspicion, heightened scrutiny of other activity ("being under a microscope"), and other losses--no matter how soundly the accusations were disproved.

Having accusations move to an investigation or hearing stage would itself create problems regardless how innocent she is. At very least, the stress of having the investigation would not help her GPA.

[darius]

Unfortunately, false accusations (whether honest or vindictive) can create their own issues.

Such a thing would never happen at Duke.

darius

[bigdawg2121]

And the people, double over in laughter. However, some accusations, false and/or vindictive though they may be could and should have been completely avoided. Part of which is DCMDale's point.

[telkanuru]

Such a thing would never happen at Duke.

darius

I just heard a funny story about how the fencing team had to take their sexual harassment briefing with the lacrosse team...

[heretic]

Unfortunately, false accusations (whether honest or vindictive) can create their own issues. I think that anyone who has been found innocent in a criminal case will tell you about lingering suspicion, heightened scrutiny of other activity ("being under a microscope"), and other losses--no matter how soundly the accusations were disproved.

Alleged NCAA sponsorship/funding violations don't exactly reach to the standard of a "criminal case," and I seriously doubt there would be any "lingering suspicion." If Duke (which is usually very compliant with NCAA regulations) and the family involved did proper due dilligence on this matter, it should be of no consequence and have no effect on her scholarship or standing.

[Superscribe]

Posting things like this only makes people more interested in the details of what actually happened. Then more people speculate on what happened. That is how things get twisted. THEN you have real problems.

I hope the Ward family keep's us posted with this little reality series.

[telkanuru]

keep's us posted

*sigh*

[Superscribe]

Who put that there?!

[darius]

I hope the Ward family keeps us posted with this little reality series.

I'd prefer to see all the information or none. Either throw everything into the open or say nothing except to trusted souls until the verdict is in. The fact that there is some movement towards dealing with their situation is heartening - the fact that it's taken this long and board members had to be badgered on a public forum less so.

(I probably shouldn't comment, given that I have at least tangential relationships with all the participants. It is mildly ironic that for all the love lost between Eric & the Wards, they're actually annoyed by the same thing with regards to the USFA.)

darius

[heretic]

I'd prefer to see all the information or none. Either throw everything into the open or say nothing except to trusted souls until the verdict is in. The fact that there is some movement towards dealing with their situation is heartening - the fact that it's taken this long and board members had to be badgered on a public forum less so.

(I probably shouldn't comment, given that I have at least tangential relationships with all the participants. It is mildly ironic that for all the love lost between Eric & the Wards, they're actually annoyed by the same thing with regards to the USFA.)

darius

I resent any parents (e.g. those with whom I am being linked above) that are governed by a profound sense of entitlement and exceptionalism. Having worked closely with wonderful families like the Smarts, Duprees, and Crosses, I understand the level of personal sacrifice made by dedicated parents, along with their willingness to accept responsibility, cooperate, respect their training partners, coaches, and the rules. I have also had the misfortune of dealing with parents who are narcissistic and self involved, never appreciative of any help they receive, always trying to exploit others for the exclusive benefit of their kids; ying/yang.

With respect to one of the original issues posited in this thread, in principle, I believe the NCAA rules regarding sponsorship should not be applied to amateur sports like fencing in the same way as they are to money makers like basketball or football. Never the less, rules are rules, and athletes contemplating NCAA careers are bound to abide by them; all athletes. I sincerely hope Ms Ward is fully exonerated of any wrong doing and can continue to reap the benefits of her well deserved athletic scholarship. Whatever the case, it would certainly be beneficial for parents, fencers and coaches to understand the specific nature of these problems, and how they are ultimately resolved.

[darius]

I resent any parents (e.g. those with whom I am being linked above) that are governed by a profound sense of entitlement and exceptionalism.

I'm in complete agreement with you. However, with regards to the coaching complaint, the good Captain is owed (in my mind) the respect of having their complaint looked at. If that complaint is spurious, they'll end up looking pretty bad. If wrongdoing is found on the national coach's part, would you eat crow, or would it just be one more example of a vast helicopter-parent conspiracy?

With regards to alleged NCAA violations, this is where it makes sense to keep silent until it's resolved. After all, absolutely nothing may come of it. Uninvolved parties fishing for excuses to get college scholarships yanked is tackier than venting one's frustrations on f.net, but I guess everybody has to have a hobby.

darius

[heretic]

I'm in complete agreement with you. However, with regards to the coaching complaint, the good Captain is owed (in my mind) the respect of having their complaint looked at. If that complaint is spurious, they'll end up looking pretty bad. If wrongdoing is found on the national coach's part, would you eat crow, or would it just be one more example of a vast helicopter-parent conspiracy?

With regards to alleged NCAA violations, this is where it makes sense to keep silent until it's resolved. After all, absolutely nothing may come of it. Uninvolved parties fishing for excuses to get college scholarships yanked is tackier than venting one's frustrations on f.net, but I guess everybody has to have a hobby.

darius

Certainly their compliant should be thorougly investigated and assessed; if I were Ed Korfanty, for the sake of my reputation and professional integrity, I would insist on it. And yes, there have been documented cases of improprieties on the part of previous US National Coaches that were probed by the USFA. Unfortunately, the unending, unanswered on-line diatribe against Ed that has been running like a broken record throughout various threads have convinced some posters that he is a bad guy. My experience (and that of many current and past Olympians and coaches with whom I am friends) has convinced me that he is justifiably among the most highly regarded National coaches, and his character and actions have been beyond reproach.

In so far as the NCAA issues are concerned, the allegations should be thoroughly investigated and assessed as well. The Wards opted to introduce the topic in this thread, making it fair game for discussion. Perhaps discretion on their part would have been prudent pending the outcome, but they chose to initiate this public counter-offensive; no arm twisting or "outing" here.

[Mo]

Such a thing would never happen at Duke.

darius

"Having accusations move to an investigation or hearing stage would itself create problems regardless how innocent she is. At very least, the stress of having the investigation would not help her GPA." DMCDale

The accusations have been flying for a while. People that have no malice just repeat things they hear whether they know for sure whether it is true or not. That is why the people that intentionally spread untruths can get away with it for so long.

Our family has been really careful.

George K ran situations through his compliance officers since the kid has been fencing. When he first saw her picture on the Leon Paul sign he was alarmed. He came by and asked us if we wanted him to run that by his compliance people. We of course asked him to do so. He was a little surprised that it was ok.
That was our first learning experience.

For instance, an NCAA fencer can have a sponsor as long as they only give them equipment. There cannot be given cash at any time. The sponsor can use the fencer's likeness. They can use their name but only until that fencer actually becomes a student. Once the student is on campus the sponsor has to stop.

The guys at Leon Paul did that for her. They were very careful and so were we. Amanda at Absolute Fencing sponsored Kelly Hurley. As a parent you have to find out the rules and follow them.

The fencer can also accept cash prizes as long as the amount of the prize is under the cost of the trip. It has to be expensed out. Cash prizes are rare and really not much of a hassle.

There was a watch that was awarded to Becca from the FIE when she won the World Cup Championship this year. Andrea went to Paris and retrieved her "stuff" but we first checked with the compliance officer at Duke and were told she could not accept the watch.
She did get to keep the Stuffed bear because that was given as part of USOC loot. There is a difference between the items given by the USOC for participation on the Olympic team and prizes awarded by the FIE.

The NCAA rules are a bit tricky so what a parent really needs to do is find out someone whom you can trust and present the questions.

George K always sent us the email with the response from the NCAA Compliance people for our records. If one person says the described situation like a sponsorship is ok, then another NCAA compliance person can't declare it being illegal at a later date as long as you have the record (email).

Interestingly, coaches can't contact students until July 1 of the summer before their senior year. A fencer may contact the coach however but the fencer has to intiate it. That is why the kids on fencing teams "talk" to their fellow fencers about attending colleges. The students do the recruiting.

If you really want to go to a school, make sure you contact the coach. If they don't write back, contact them again. There is a limit to how much you can talk to them and how much they can talk to you. It was really nice once the kid started school because now we can talk as much as we want.


If your fencer is going to go to a community college and take classes for college credit, that will start the NCAA clock ticking. If they go for two years they will only have two years of eligibility left. I was shocked to find that out. They can go for "core curriculum credit," which is high school, but not for college. That is another good thing to know.

Be alert, pay attention and don't take anyone's word for it unless they are an NCAA compliance officer. Save the emails.

Never hire an agent. That is the one of the biggest violations. It will make you a professional immediately and void any NCAA eligibility.

When you are talking to the compliance people be honest. Tell them what the fencer has done. Usually you are ok. If there are some trouble some areas, extra documentation may be necessary. Fortunately for us we were careful from the beginning.

Hang onto all the receipts you have. Sort them according to the trip.

Those are the basics of NCAA manuevering.

If you do all this if some vindictive individual starts going after your kid, you are armed for it. It is shocking when they do but expect it.
I was talking to the Duke NCAA person and told them this person may be calling. They were not taken by surprise when she did. The coach however was not amused. At all.
I guess when some power freaks lose their control over a fencer, it makes them more unbalanced.
If anyone has questions about NCAA stuff feel free to shoot me a pm. I can help you find the information you need. I won't be responsible, I will just point you in the right direction.
A great place to start is google.

The Momster