How to Evaluate a Coach

[jBirch]

I think you guys missed the most important part of Dan's answer:

Finally, are you working hard enough to achieve your goals?

Absolutely nothing else matters until you've mastered that point. And until you do, any coach is a great coach.

James.

[prototoast]

Absolutely nothing else matters until you've mastered that point. And until you do, any coach is a great coach.

James.

I couldn't disagree more. Working hard enough to meet one's goals is important, but even if you're not, there's a lot to consider in your coach, and I would certainly disagree that in that scenario, every coach is a great coach.

The most obvious counterexample would be if your coach is a child molester or something. More realistically, though, is a scenario where one's own goals are just a little too high. If my goal was to be #1 in the world, but I was only practicing 2-3 hours a day, with maybe an hour of conditioning 5 days a week, I would be working pretty hard, but probably not quite enough to get to be world #1. Even though I might not be putting in enough effort to meet my goals, I am still putting in a lot of effort, and my results and the quality of my experience will vary widely with different coaches.

You should probably change your post to the much weaker statement: "if you are not working hard enough to meet your goals then by definition, you won't be able to meet your goals, regardless of who your coach is."

[Mo]

Oh, Mo.
Where are you when we need you on this thread?

Aw Rocky you are so sweet...

Most people seem to be really sick of me so I have been laying really low.
But, making it to the Os is basically a big ole crap shoot.

You have to have the individual talent, the ability to work very hard and a coach who can help you until you get to the point where you can pretty much figure out things for yourself.

Another overlooked but really important thing is who are have to train with as you improve. The closer you get to the top of the field, the harder it is to find training partners.

Cross training is very important. You want your body to be able to work without thinking about it. My kid had a wonderful Coach at a place called Velocity Sports. Matt was so good for her head. He was so supportive and enthusiastic and such an amazingly nice guy that without him, she would have been suicidal as things got closer to the Os.

When going to a club or changing a coach, if the club is geared toward one fencer, keep in mind that everything will be pretty much fine until you start beating that fencer. It is especially hard if the fencer's mother owns the club and the coach.

I am pretty much disgusted by fencing in general due to the treatment my daughter received and the inability of the top dogs at the USFA AND the USOC to see the problem and do anything about it. We were trapped.
We were repeated told, "they are winning, why change anything?"

Ed was Mariel's coach not my kids. He didn't have my daughter's interests at heart or anywhere else.
Bless Yury Gelman's heart because he stepped in and coached my daughter at her big events ie the world championships in Torino and the Olympics. He somehow showed up for her. Having a coach standing is huge emotional support.
Thanks Yury!!!

There have to be some good coaches out there who have ethics. Yury does and I know there are others.

For a really serious fencer it seems that one of the only alternatives is to train in Europe. In this economy that is very difficult. If you are training there you will be a fencing dummy and your information will get watered down. If you can observe and learn on your own though, you can figure things out. This is an excellent situation for someone who learns best by bouting other people like my kid does.

Be aware and try to avoid video tape and dishonest coaches.

Good luck with that.

The Momster

[occasionalfencer]

Be aware and try to avoid video tape and dishonest coaches.

Good luck with that.

The Momster

Why avoid video tape? My son videos most of his competition bouts, and many others as well and he learns from the tapes.

[stillchris]

[QUOTE=occasionalfencer;760287]Why avoid video tape? My son videos most of his competition bouts, and many others as well and he learns from the tapes.[/QUOTE

Do you get the permission of the other fencer? What if a coach uses that video tape to coach an opponent of your son's. As I recall that was Mo's problem.

[Mo]

Been thinking more on this and so much of the choice of coach depends on the age of the fencer.
What may work well for a very young fencer can be hell three or four years later.
Some things you need to ask prospective coaches.

1. Do you realize that by hiring you as a coach I am not giving away my parental rights and choices??

2. When traveling, do you expect us to give up what has been working and adhere to your schedule even though we have found our way to work better?

3. Do you understand what kind of things exacerbate an injury?
(Just because your coach doesn't believe a doctor or three doctors, doesn't mean the doctor is wrong and your fencer needs surgery.

4. Do you really think you have some kind of crystal ball and can tell my kid that she is smart "but not that smart" and has no business choosing her own college?

5. Do you understand that if my fencer feels unsafe going to an African country with recent bombings it is her choice whether she goes or not, not yours and truly not the team manager's?

My video tape reference was that some unscrupulous coaches will use "hours and hours" of video to help one student over another student. I think that it is ok for a coach to use video but not ok for a coach to use video for the benefit of his favorite while making the life of his non chosen fencer miserable.

If a coach makes that choice he could at least give the non chosen fencer the choice of lessons with the other coach in residence at the club who is not working against her.
That didn't happen either.

So what can I say. You find out stuff when you are trapped and not before hand. Let the buyer beware.

This is also why I have a huge problem with the designated national coach. They are paid by the USFA and can abuse anyone they want with little consequence. They have all the power and the individual fencer has none.
When disputes occur the fencer is the one left out in the cold no matter how good they are.

The Disaffected Momster

[telkanuru]

This might be a good time to mention that your experiences are not really indicative of what to expect for the vast majority of parents.

[Superscribe]

Mo, i sympathize... i really do. However, this is also be a good time to point out how unbeleivably Medea it sounds when one refer resentfully to selective parts of some dramatic unfolding, while making the assumption that somehow the problems you and your daughter have had, Mo, are known many people on this forum. Has there been some previous discussion?

I personally don't think that Rock's post was/should have been an invitation to air out some dirty laundry.

I MIGHT also go so far as to say that MAYBE this type of backstory driven advice has the POSSIBILITY of making a few people upset or confused, and there is therefore a CHANCE you are exacerbating the situation with your daughter, if that still matters to you.

I don't presume to know your original intentions, but I CAN tell you how you are coming across.

And this leads me to my primary reason for posting: I like to ask the opinions of other patrons of that particular coach. You meet with current fencers and maybe even their parents. You see what they are like. You see what their results are. You see what kind of work this person has to put in for their resulst. Then you temper that with some brutally realistic pro/con analysis.

[prototoast]

I personally don't think that Rock's post was/should have been an invitation to air out some dirty laundry.

I'm pretty sure she posted exactly what Rock wanted her to post.

[MdA]

"I've lived long enough to have learned
The closer you get to the fire the more you get burned
....
A constant battle for the ultimate state of control
After you've heard lie upon lie
There can hardly be a question of why .....

Because it's always been a matter of trust"

Billy Joel

http://www.actionext.com/names_b/bil..._of_trust.html

[Verbify]

I've been thinking a lot about all these responses. The original questions were:
"How do you evaluate a coach? How do you decide to stay with someone? How do you decide to move on?"

I think those responses that hint at evaluating progress toward goals over anything else are really on the right path, as long as you realize that coaching isn't always the limiting factor in progress. The obligation of a coach is to be present, to teach you the skills you will need and to direct your attention to the internal patterns that prevent you from being present on the piste. Your obligation as a student is to practice what is taught, as it is given. You must also test those skills yourself for validity and either reject them or master them. Those that you keep must be applied to your fencing. Sometimes the failures of one are simply mistaken for the failures of the other.

There's more musings on this in my blog.

[Inquartata]

Without taking sides on the particular situation, I'd like to ask this of the coaches here: If you had the parent of a prospective student ask you the sorts of questions Mo listed, would you be eager to take on that student?

I do not coach, but if I did I think I'd pass on that particular client as promising to be a royal PITA. There are better ways to interview a coach, I think. A little diplomacy goes a long way.

[Mo]

This might be a good time to mention that your experiences are not really indicative of what to expect for the vast majority of parents.

Telk,
This is true, they are not the experiences of most fencers. I am biased and angry,
My daughter was really hurt by her experiences with her coach. She was betrayed by one of the people closest to her for 7 years. That is hard to take because she is a really great kid. She didn't deserve to be treated the way she was. The experience will have a lasting impact on the rest of her life.
This is a venue where you hope someone will listen to you. I know it is mostly futility but I keep trying anyway.
Sorry for ruffling feathers... well not really, if you don't like my posts skip over them.
The Momster

[telkanuru]

I'm not bothered by your posts; you seem to have a pretty legit complaint, even if we're only hearing one side of the story.

However, a newcomer to the forum might see such a post and question what the hell is wrong with fencing

[Inquartata]

If he needs a post like that to tell him this, he is not very perspicacious.

[Mo]

Without taking sides on the particular situation, I'd like to ask this of the coaches here: If you had the parent of a prospective student ask you the sorts of questions Mo listed, would you be eager to take on that student?

I do not coach, but if I did I think I'd pass on that particular client as promising to be a royal PITA. There are better ways to interview a coach, I think. A little diplomacy goes a long way.

You know Inq at first your post annoyed me but then I thought, hmmmm what if?

Asking hard questions is a good thing. If I were a coach I would first find out who the student was and would use that as an indicator. Then I would turn on my BS filter and see what my own personal perception was.

Having a coach who will answer your questions in an amazing way is such a good method to find a coach. If they are turned off because of wanting to know what they plan to do, screw them and find someone else.
If you have nothing to hide you won't get worried.
That is why my kid goes to Duke. He answered anything our family asked him. He was completely up front with all the details and wanted to know what we thought. He went through our questions unruffled and smiling. I love that guy!!! At orientation the other sport coaches were telling parents not to call if their kid is having a problem. Alex let us know that we were expected to call because he wanted your kid to have the very best experience.
So, if you are putting your very serious fencer in the hands of the coach, you better do your homework and find out what makes the coach tick.
Coaches can change over time. So make the decision very carefully... ask questions. If the coach won't answer go somewhere else.

The Momster

[Rock]

Without taking sides on the particular situation, I'd like to ask this of the coaches here: If you had the parent of a prospective student ask you the sorts of questions Mo listed, would you be eager to take on that student?

I do not coach, but if I did I think I'd pass on that particular client as promising to be a royal PITA. There are better ways to interview a coach, I think. A little diplomacy goes a long way.

Well, I get uncomfortable about starting a coaching relationship with a young student if the parents DON'T ask questions like these. I want the parents (and the students) to know the reasons for everything I do.

I ask the parents to not make a coach/club choice based just on what I say (I'm obviously biased), but talk to other parents and fencers when I'm not around. I have information from the other 3 clubs in Portland; I ask the parents to visit them, talk to the parents, fencers, coaches there to see if one of the clubs might offer a better program for what they want for their child.

I often have to give answers to questions that it hadn't occurred to the parents to ask.

Yes, parents/fencers can be a PITA, but I've found that in our program it's usually because they had preconceptions about it (that hadn't occurred to me) and were dissatisfied when we wouldn't modify the program for their personal preferences. The parents being willing to ask many questions minimizes the number of incidences of this, though.

[epeelion]

He answered anything our family asked him. He was completely up front with all the details and wanted to know what we thought. He went through our questions unruffled and smiling. I love that guy!!! At orientation the other sport coaches were telling parents not to call if their kid is having a problem. Alex let us know that we were expected to call because he wanted your kid to have the very best experience.

Alex Beguinet is a great guy, and I'm sure he meant every word.

That said, your daughter was an extremely valuable recruiting opportunity, especially for Duke (which doesn't get a ton of very high-level recruits). Luckily, you happened upon a coach who really is genuinely a good guy (from all that I've heard). However, I wouldn't rely on just what the coach says as being indicative, especially if your child is so desirable from a fencing point of view (not saying you weren't thorough, but pointing out to everyone else that asking questions directly may not always be effective). Smart coaches know what to tell parents. You have to let the student and coach feel each other out, because direct questions simply might not provide very accurate answers or impressions. With college coaches, this can be difficult, so input from former students and reputation becomes important as well.

.02

[Allen Evans]

The parent/coach equation can be an easy partnership, a delicate balancing act, or a complete failure, depending on each party. It helps if a coach is transparent in his or her dealings with the parents and fencers. It's also helpful if the parents are completely honest with with the coach concerning motives and wishes for their children. I've seen failures on both sides of the equation, and when it happens I've never seen either side admit that they caused it, or even contributed to it.

Without taking sides on the particular situation, I'd like to ask this of the coaches here: If you had the parent of a prospective student ask you the sorts of questions Mo listed, would you be eager to take on that student?

My own personal feeling? A parent has the right--even the responsibility--to ask hard questions. But they should then be prepared to listen to hard answers, and get some hard questions back from the coach.

If you walk into my club voicing the expectation that you --as a parent --are going to be cheated and abused, I'm not inclined to take your son or daughter on as a student. The equation between coach and parent is unbalanced from the start, and coaching the average fencer is hard enough work without dealing with this parental relationship.

AE

[Capt. Slo-mo]

A new parent/student doesn't have enough of a baseline to formulate a lot of tough questions...it's hard to know what to ask.

If you have a more experienced situation though, the areas to cover can ramp up. In the case of Mo's Five Questions of Destiny, though, if vetting a new coach, I probably wouldn't ask those questions in precisely that way. I'd likely find it more illuminating to tell the coach of those 5 situations we encountered in another salle, and then ask how he/she would deal with the same issues.