Card question

[catwood1]

Ok, I think I should know these, but I don't, so I'll ask, because I'm sure there are other people that don't know.

A couple of assorted questions about cards that can be given:

1) Say at 4-4, both fencers already have a yellow. A guy gets a touch, then has a crazy over the top celebration. The ref wants to card him for it. If he does not want to black, his best option would be a red for disturbing order, and even if didn't want to do that, anything else would be at least a red. If he gives this, would it annul is last touch, and give the opponent the win? Or would his victory stand?

2) At the end of a close DE bout, a fencer wins then has a crazy over the top celebration where he gets black carded. Would this mean the other fencer has effectively won the bout, or that the original winner still won the bout, but is then ejected from the event?


I think in both of these the exact timing may matter. If I win a DE then have a crazy celebration 10 minutes later, I still won my DE. But, if I celebrate before shaking and signing, did I still win the bout?

Thanks in advance!

[edew]

At least in case (2), if the fencer cheers too obnoxiously before the referee signs on the scoresheet, I can see the referee hand the black card and he's out before the end of the bout and the loser becomes the winner. If he's walking to the BC table with the scoresheet and does something black cardable, then the loser is still the loser and the future opponent of the winner automatically wins that next bout.

[acarter]

I think, and I'm not sure, but for #1 if you give a red card for disturbing order it doesn't annul a touch, but in this case it would make it 5-5, which in reality is back to 4-4. It's the same "action" when both fencers earn a touch, one for scoring one as a penalty touch, so both get annulled, and your back where you started.

[KD5MDK]

You've forgotten the other 10 points they need to score to reach 15.

[irishfolker]

Not if it's a pool bout.

[telkanuru]

The correct answer is don't throw the card to begin with.

[epeemike81]

The correct answer is don't throw the card to begin with.

QF Probable T.

I have never seen a celebration that I would throw a card for. Certainly not a G3 Red.

I could envision one for which I'd throw a black (probably involving the words "suck it, *****!") but I've never actually encountered it, so odds are this situation just shouldn't come up.

IMO, any celebration which isn't deserving of a black for unsportsmanlike isn't worthy of a card.

-m

[Cookeit]

Would you card someone for doing the "Jump on it" dance?
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWiqnPIxIdM)

hehehe.

[HDG]

Would you card someone for doing the "Jump on it" dance?
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWiqnPIxIdM)

hehehe.

I'm more of a Rerun dance person myself.

[notalent]

QF Probable T.

I have never seen a celebration that I would throw a card for. Certainly not a G3 Red.

I could envision one for which I'd throw a black (probably involving the words "suck it, *****!") but I've never actually encountered it, so odds are this situation just shouldn't come up.

IMO, any celebration which isn't deserving of a black for unsportsmanlike isn't worthy of a card.

-m

Generally speaking I agree with Mike and Telk. At one NAC a comp got a G3 red and was told to refence a touch after he whipped off his mask for the 15th touch and it bounced on another strip IN USE.

[catwood1]

One such example I saw, there was a thread on here about.

Fencer wins the bout, turns around and screams / growls for about 2 or 3 seconds. Stops. Turns about around. Takes about 4 or 5 steps (silently) up to his opponent and growls again in his face.

This is definitely a card. I could see not giving a black, but you can't do that...

[telkanuru]

This is definitely a card.

It is?

[catwood1]

It is?

Absolutely.

If its a decision to stop yelling. Turn 180 degrees, take 5 steps towards your opponent calmly, then scream again in his face, absolutely...

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Absolutely.

If its a decision to stop yelling. Turn 180 degrees, take 5 steps towards your opponent calmly, then scream again in his face, absolutely...

and you've seen this when?

[Allen Evans]

This is definitely a card. I could see not giving a black, but you can't do that...

This wouldn't be unsportsmanlike conduct?

AE

[Rockstar44]

Just for the record, I am not a Ref, but I have an opinion on this.

1) Say at 4-4, both fencers already have a yellow. A guy gets a touch, then has a crazy over the top celebration. The ref wants to card him for it. If he does not want to black, his best option would be a red for disturbing order, and even if didn't want to do that, anything else would be at least a red. If he gives this, would it annul is last touch, and give the opponent the win? Or would his victory stand?

If the Ref does give a card, it is for something the fencer did after the completion of the action. Therefore, the way I see it, it probably shouldn't affect the score. On the other hand, the bout isn't over until the Ref says that it's over, so I am sure that many will disagree.

2) At the end of a close DE bout, a fencer wins then has a crazy over the top celebration where he gets black carded. Would this mean the other fencer has effectively won the bout, or that the original winner still won the bout, but is then ejected from the event?

I guess that the timing really does matter here. If it's a black card before the bout is over (shaking and signing) it seems that the win would be forfeited and the opponent would win. If it's after the bout is over I would think that it would just be expulsion and the victory would stand.

I think in both of these the exact timing may matter.

I guess this is really the answer to both questions.

Or am I seeing this all wrong?

[catwood1]

and you've seen this when?

Um... I want to say it was dallas last year? Some junior NAC. Winning fencer was high on the points list and had a very well known coach. No one knew the losing fencer. No card was given...

I agree Allen, this probably is unsportsmanlike conduct. However, I could also understand any referee not wanting to throw this card. If nothing else, than because they don't want to deal with the b***s*** that would follow. Its not right, but it could happen.

So does this thread mean no one knows what would happen, so just don't do it? Thanks acarter and rockstar, at least you gave it a shot. I tend to disagree with acarter, because that just seems bizarre, but it could be the correct interpretation.

[telkanuru]

Absolutely.

Nope.

[Allen Evans]

Under the rules, none of the immediate red cards would apply in this case besides disturbing order. A celebration (even a loud one) is not going to be grounds for a red card, unless, as I and others have mentioned, it's an unsportsmanlike display. In which case, you only have two choices: ignore it (because you don't want to deal with the bs) or black card the offending fencer.

If you feel the bout is over, and the fencer is carrying on, you might be justified to give a yellow card for spectator disturbing order (at this point, there is a thin argument that the fencer is no longer actively participating in the bout, with theproblem that they are still on the strip). This is a lame warning shot across the bow, perhaps, but better than nothing.

I beleive that all of the other red cards call for annulling a touch, but in your rather artificial example, none of them really apply to the offense.

Your best bet is "refusing to salute after the final touch" which annuls his last touch and gives the winner a Group 3 read (T.87). But this is going to be very hard to defend to a BC.

The situation is so artificial, the answers are going to be artificial as well, if anyone comes up with a good one, at all.

AE

[telkanuru]

Allen has it.

I'm not willing to throw a big B for that, and I have no other cards or punishments to go to.

So, I don't throw a card.