A Question of ROW

[dknj]

I'm glad to see my answer started a good discussion.
If you have any questions for me, please leave a comment at:
http://www.sofaemployed.com/?p=971

[dknj]

Technically, the right of way is not transferred to anyone. It's just that no one has ROW at that moment. It's up to either fencer to take the ROW. Usually, by convention, the referee gives the one who made the other lose ROW a reasonable opportunity to take over. That's the "immediate and without delay" part of taking over ROW. The decision of what is considered immediate and without delay is up to the referee.

At the NAC this past weekend, I did a parry with retreat and then slowly extended while my opponent redoubled. We both hit and the refereed gave the touch to the opponent claiming I was holding too long.

In another bout, I did what my opponent did in the above scenario (with a different referee) and the call was for my opponent.

I wasn't happy in either case, obviously, but I understand how it can be called both ways.

But back to the "transfer of ROW", there is no such transfer. The one who made the other lose ROW has to actively take the ROW, if not, either one can do so.

I think you got hosed in both cases.

[CChang]

Wow - I didn't know my question to Dan would spark such interest at Fnet...

I'm reading all of the above posts and I don't seem to find my answer. Perhaps I am just not following as consistent as I should be.

On the note of 'immediate' AS soon as Right fencer retreats and causes the left fencer to fall short, He/She attacks - presumably countering. Isn't that immediate enough? But if so, is the Point in Line still [re?] established? Who's touch?


Regards
CC

[Allen Evans]

I thought at one point the FIE had made it clear that an attack ending in lunge with an extended arm was considered a PIL and that the blade must be delt with, provided that the intitial extension was never broken or interrupted in any way? The "escape" for many referees in not giving this touch is that few fencers can make a strong lunge without breaking the arm slightly on the landing, thus invalidating the PIL.

fdad: I've seen this called over and over again for the fencer doing the advance lunge. Simply sticking a blade out into the lunge is usually seen by the referee as a reaction, and not a PIL, since the attacker has closed the distance, and effectively started his/her attack. Withdrawing the arm does make the attacker vulnerable to counter-attacks or stop hits, which, of course, must hit before the final action of the attack. In practical terms, this usually means that it has to be one light for the defender.

My memory might be a little shaky on this, but I seem to recall the women at the World Cup level making (and getting) this attack a lot. I haven't watched much women's foil lately (and what I have watched has been dominated by Italian counter-attackers) so that might have changed.


AE

[TBean]

A RoW question was posted yesterday and there are only two pages of responses.

You people are such slackers.

[Tomas N]

A RoW question was posted yesterday and there are only two pages of responses.

You people are such slackers.

That's because we've finally all figured ROW out. Turns out that it's actually pretty easy.

Tomas

[visudo]

That's because we've finally all figured ROW out. Turns out that it's actually pretty easy.

Yeah right... my head is spinning!

[noodle]

That's because we've finally all figured ROW out. Turns out that it's actually pretty easy.

Tomas

my job here is done

[Sean Butler]

I think it would be interesting to try and develop a RoW Wiki, one with images and videos which give examples of the specific cases and subtle differences.

[edew]

I think you got hosed in both cases.

We always do, don't we?

[noodle]

I think it would be interesting to try and develop a RoW Wiki, one with images and videos which give examples of the specific cases and subtle differences.

http://wiki.14meters.com
go.

[Tomas N]

OK, so for those of you who haven't figured this issue out, FP seems to have put the exact clip up that I was talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TueN9ct1HU

Tomas

[Sean Butler]

http://wiki.14meters.com
go.

Thanks for the offer, noodle. After I checked out the wiki, looked on its developer's website, and played with it a bit, I didn't see a real easy way to incorporate embeded video into it. Even the ability to embed a youtube link which plays right there on the page would be good. For example like this:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TueN9ct1HU[/YOUTUBE]

[noodle]

Thanks for the offer, noodle. After I checked out the wiki, looked on its developer's website, and played with it a bit, I didn't see a real easy way to incorporate embeded video into it. Even the ability to embed a youtube link which plays right there on the page would be good. For example like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TueN9ct1HU

this is installed: http://wiki.symplus.co.jp/computer/en/youtube_plugin

[the ancient one]

In reality, that sequence gets all sorts of calls; you have to see how the director calls the first one, and then apply that information.

The rulebook is pretty clear that PIL has priority if it is T10 (completely) established before the beginning of the opponents action. T56.a.6, T60.2.a.

In the case of the video I don't see left's action starting before the PIL is complete. If left's arm was coming out even a little before the end of the (short) lunge the PIL would be no good.

Am I retro or what?

[OROD]

In reality, that sequence gets all sorts of calls; you have to see how the director calls the first one, and then apply that information.

The only thing that is a bit confusing in the video is the clanking sound when the fencer on the left attacks. It kind of sounds as if there might have been a beat or something, but if you look at it there wasnt anything like that... just possibly some insidental blade/bellguard contact at the end of the attack. Otherwise it's pretty clear, fencer on the right attacks. Attack ends in PiL. Fencer on the left attacks into PiL. Tough right.

.

[edew]

Attack from the right is NO. Attack from the left is VALID. Remise/replacement/PiL from right is INCORRECT/NOT IN TIME

[Tomas N]

The only thing that is a bit confusing in the video is the clanking sound when the fencer on the left attacks. It kind of sounds as if there might have been a beat or something, but if you look at it there wasnt anything like that... just possibly some insidental blade/bellguard contact at the end of the attack. Otherwise it's pretty clear, fencer on the right attacks. Attack ends in PiL. Fencer on the left attacks into PiL. Tough right.

.

Whatever the clanking sound is, it is not enough to displace right fencer's point.

Tomas

[OROD]

Attack from the right is NO. Attack from the left is VALID. Remise/replacement/PiL from right is INCORRECT/NOT IN TIME

Sorry Eric, you're dead wrong here.

.

[Stormbringer]

To anyone who actually has that DVD:

Does it come with some sort of booklet, leaflet, or on-disc follow-up segments identifying and explaining the correct call for each example?