Coupe

[big daddy]

How is the coupe excuted? Iv'e seen it done from a elbow although that seems more of withdrawn thrust rather than a cutting over a line. Using the wrist seems almost like a cut in saber or a flick. Im asking how do you guys teach the coupe in foil?

[Allen Evans]

The coupe isn't a set "size" you can make a little coupe with the fingers (for instance, when changing lines while out of distance) or make a coupe with the elbow (for changing lines when you are very close). A fencer might also want to engage more joints depending on where the coupe is going to finish to. For example, you might start the coupe with a finger/wrist motion and then add an elbow motion to finish with a flick to a deep target.

Tell me what you have to get around, and where you're going to, and I'll tell you how big the coupe has to be.

Allen

[oiuyt]

Tell me what you have to get around, and where you're going to, and I'll tell you how big the coupe has to be.

Mostly I have to get around town and use it for commuting. I do, however, take a fair number of longer trips, many of which also require a fencing bag to be able to fit.

-B

[telkanuru]

Brad FTW.

[Bryn Ralph]

The French method employs the arm; the Italian method employs the wrist.

As to the pedagogy, this depends upon the instructor's background and training in foil fencing.

[Allen Evans]

The French method employs the arm; the Italian method employs the wrist.

I'm not sure that this answer is any more helpful than Mr O's.

I am not sure that these distinctions exist any more, except in the US. My own lessons with Leon Auriol (French trained) never had me making coupés with anything but my fingers, and a little wrist when required.

AE

[ivlobane]

The French method employs the arm; the Italian method employs the wrist..

...and the Russian method employs pure force of ego.

[jBirch]

A point of clarity:

What's the difference between a coupe and a flick?

James.

[Allen Evans]

For me, not much.

AE

[Durando]

Maître Wallems [sp?], a sort of referent for collective fencing pedagogy in France puts his students en garde within the four meters and limits the actions to a) "attack over the blade"; b) counter six. He asked us why we thought he asked the students to do a counter six. Nobody knew. It was because if he had allowed them the quarte the coupé wouldn't have worked. Duh!

[Adler]

A point of clarity:

What's the difference between a coupe and a flick?

James.

A coupe must round the opponents weapon near the point whereas not all flicks have to for example disengage flick to outside wrist at Epee or a disengage flick to flank at Foil.

[MdA]

I don't teach coupe anymore and limited flicks....because of the foil timing. They are both low percentage shots...these days....only to be used when you can afford to miss.

[Allen Evans]

I've continued to teach the coupé quite a bit. Partially because I think it "sticks" into certain targets better, and partially because it serves as a good way to teach hand and feet coordination. The disengage "runs" into the opponent, and the fencer tends not to have to guage the relative motion between their hand and their feet. Becuase the coupé takes a little more coordination, I find it's a good introduction to students who may need to start an attack slowly and then accelerate their hand.

I've always used the coupé as a gateway to teaching students to flick, and I still use it for that in foil and epeé.

AE

[Durando]

Becuase the coupé takes a little more coordination, I find it's a good introduction to students who may need to start an attack slowly and then accelerate their hand.

Really well said Allen.

[forethought]

How is the coupe excuted? Iv'e seen it done from a elbow although that seems more of withdrawn thrust rather than a cutting over a line. Using the wrist seems almost like a cut in saber or a flick. Im asking how do you guys teach the coupe in foil?

Are you talking about the coupé, the coulé, or the froissement?

Assuming you're talking about the froissement, I teach it usually towards the end of all the attaque au fers and prise de fers, in that I have the defenders hold their weapon with the point a bit higher than the attacker's head, with the blades engaged in quarte (assuming same handedness). The attacker then executes the coupé to sixte (here, a change of engagement by going over the blade instead of under), using as small and quick of a motion as possible, and then make contact with the defender's blade directly below the point. From here the attacker extends their arm quickly using both the elbow and the wrist, while trying to trace the outline of the defender's body towards the inside line with their tip (this ensures that the force is not going straight down, and also not horizontally, but against the blade). The attacker's blade ideally should not hit the defender's bellguard (though sometimes, due to height differences, this is harder to avoid) and the arm should be in extension before any movement of the feet, to ensure that all the force is transferred against the blade so as to expel it from the line; if the opponent doesn't know what's going on, or has a weak grip on their weapon, you can disarm them.

Usually, this serves as a little treat for my students, and they always seem to enjoy it more than some of the other techniques (though it has more limited opportunities for use). Sometimes I show how to do it as part of a bind if you really think you can send your opponent's weapon flying.

[Durando]

Are you talking about the coupé, the coulé, or the froissement?

A coupé is not an action au fer.

[MdA]

I've continued to teach the coupé quite a bit. Partially because I think it "sticks" into certain targets better, and partially because it serves as a good way to teach hand and feet coordination. The disengage "runs" into the opponent, and the fencer tends not to have to guage the relative motion between their hand and their feet. Becuase the coupé takes a little more coordination, I find it's a good introduction to students who may need to start an attack slowly and then accelerate their hand.

I've always used the coupé as a gateway to teaching students to flick, and I still use it for that in foil and epeé.

AE

Allen, This makes good sense. I am not currently teaching any beginners or intermediates.

[jBirch]

Just to clarify:

1) A coupe is simply a disengage over the blade, instead of under it.

2) Changes of engagement are properly done with the fingers, though they can also be done with the wrist or the elbow, depending upon the distance and the finish.

3) Generally, coupe finish with a thrust is done with the fingers and from lunge distance.

4) Generally, coupe finish with flick is done with the elbow and a strongly entering action.

5) Generally, coupe to bind or other prise de fer is done with the wrist.

6) A transfer with a "thrown point" around the bell generally executed from 6 into 4 target is properly termed a "croisse" when the opposite point isn't deceived. A croisse and a coupe can look very similar and achieve pretty much the same thing, but are technically, quite different.

How you teach the coupe then becomes an outcome of what you intend to do with it. I'm not a fan of practicing coupes on their own, just like I don't really like practicing disengages without also finishing the action with a touch.

So, I'd ask: starting in what engagement and finishing to what target are you teaching the coupe? What is the opponent doing while the action is underway?

From that I'll tell you how I'd teach it.

Hope this helps.

James.

[3weaponsabre]

I honestly am not huge on flicking, as a flick is often not that accurate if the person does not have good control of the flick. Coupés on the other hand, I love. I was taught to coupe the same way I was taught to disengage. It was a bit hard for me to learn the timing, but my coach made me slow down the action so I could understand it better. Now I coupé all the time. I find that it works better than a disengage, and usually I use my wrist, because I do it from quite a bit ferther away. They tend to be pretty accurate and get me over the parries almost all the time.

[Allen Evans]

6) A transfer with a "thrown point" around the bell generally executed from 6 into 4 target is properly termed a "croisse" when the opposite point isn't deceived. A croisse and a coupe can look very similar and achieve pretty much the same thing, but are technically, quite different.

I'm not sure that I understand what you're saying here.

A croisse is a transfer from a high line (or low line) to a corresponding low line (or high line) on the same side: 4 to 7 or 6 to 8 (or vica versa). I would disagree that the coupé and croisse achieve "pretty much the same thing".

Unless your use of the word croisse is different than mine.

Ae