Foil Question

[MBalderson]

OK, I feel dumb for needing to ask this, but it is beyond me and I couldn't find anything directly pertaining to this when I looked back through some posts.
Due to the constant request for more information, I'll try to head it off by giving all that I have now.
Foil was having intermittent white lights, so I rewired the blade. I used all the same parts when putting it back together except for the tip/barrel.
When I plugged the weapon in, it was grounding out.
I took the tip out, and it continued to ground until I removed the socket from contact with both the blade and guard, when it immediately white lighted.
Finding this interesting, I put the tip back in. Once again, it would ground out unless I kept the socket separated from the blade/guard.
This last result has me puzzled the most, so please let me know what you think it could be. Thanks a lot!

[mrbiggs]

First, try to make your thread titles a bit more specific--"foil question" could apply to quite a lot of threads.

The C line connects through the socket to the bellguard, so once you take the socket off the guard you're breaking that connection. In other words, what you've ruled out is that you've got a socket grounding problem. The fact that you've taken the tip out rules that out as well (and I assume you took the spring out as well).

Make sure you clean the tip out and that there's no conductive debris which can connect the cup to the wall of the barrel.

I believe the only option you have left is that the insulation is broken on the wire somewhere, possibly under the barrel, though others on this forum might have another idea.

[oiuyt]

Separating the socket from the blade/bell results in a break -- and hence the white light (the foil circuit is a "normally closed" circuit where the white light indicates a break in the circuit and the failure to create a new circuit through the opposing side's A-line).

Sounds like you nicked the wire insulation during the rewire job and created a short somewhere. All other symptoms described are consistent with that.

I'd like additional information about what you mean by "ground out", however. Not that it isn't happening, but given that you seem surprised by the white light coming on when you remove the socket/bell contact point, I'm uncomfortable assuming that all descriptive terms are being used correctly elsewhere.

-B

[SJCFU#2]

Sounds like a short somewhere in there.

If I'm understanding you correctly the short occurs with or without the tip in the barrel it seems unlikely that the short is in the tip itself.

Try removing the tip (one less thing in the way) and measuring resistance between the wire and the blade - I suspect it will be pretty close to zero ohms (which is not good). Remove the grip, socket and guard checking resistance between the wire and the blade at each stage. If you are lucky at some point in there the short will be broken and resistance will shoot up to almost infinite (which is what it should be with the tip removed).

Possible sources include a wire pinched between the grip and the socket (or even worse, between the socket and the guard - that often crushes the wire), a nick in the insulation (usually either up inside the tip or back close to guard - if you are lucky you might be able to just slide the spaghetti insulation over the bad spot), or a short in the socket (occasionally the plastic insulation on the socket the wire connects to will break down).

One other thing to look at is how your body cord fits in the socket. Occasionally I'll run across a body cord where the metal retaining clip will come into contact with the top of the insulated socket, creating a short between the insulated socket and the grounded bracket.

Unfortunately if you get down to the point where you still have a short when there is nothing there but a wired blade (and you've already pulled the wire pulled away from the blade as much as possible without tearing up the glue), then you are probably looking at another rewiring job.

[MBalderson]

Thank you all for your comments.

B, I actually had not heard about the necessary contact between blade and socket, though when I think about it, it makes perfect sense. To answer your question, I refer to grounding out as to no lights coming on, regardless of what situation the weapon is in.

It seems like the consensus is break in the wire, and aside from my own hope to not need to do another rewire, I think that's what it's gonna be. Just as another question though, is it possible that a point setter could break the wire without it being noticed?

[MBalderson]

Oh, and I'm sorry for making this just about the most general title for a thread ever on f.net.

[SJCFU#2]

It seems like the consensus is break in the wire, and aside from my own hope to not need to do another rewire,, I think that's what it's gonna be.

Actually I believe the consensus is that there is a break in the insulation of the wire which is allowing current to short between the wire and the blade. If the wire were actually broken (without shorting to the blade) then you would have a continuous white light.

Unfortunately the solution is the same either way - rewire.

Just as another question though, is it possible that a point setter could break the wire without it being noticed?

Highly unlikely.

Usually when the break is in the barrel it's because there's a bad connection between the wire and the brass contact that sits inside the plastic cup (usually a poor soldering job), the wire was pinched and got caught in the threads why screwing on the barrel (which is why you should tighten the barrel with only a couple of inches of wire fed through the barrel - that way if you mess up you will only loose a little bit of wire which you would probably have ended up cutting off anyway, and you should keep light tension on the wire as you push the contact into the barrel), or the wire broke while tightening the barrel (which is another arguement for tightening the barrel before setting the contact).

edit: BTW - there have been worse thread titles. At least you managed to specify the weapon.

[cbeaz]

I actually had this same problem. Mine was intermitten and i rewired/had the blade rewired multiple times. The problem was in my socket, the insulator in the socket was a rubber grommet, very cool looking and worked great. What had happened is that the rubber grommet had developed a tear on the inside and was allowing the terminal to ground to the socket. Once I replaced the grommet not more problems. Check the insulator in the socket.

[larkmaj]

I actually had this same problem. Mine was intermitten and i rewired/had the blade rewired multiple times. The problem was in my socket, the insulator in the socket was a rubber grommet, very cool looking and worked great. What had happened is that the rubber grommet had developed a tear on the inside and was allowing the terminal to ground to the socket. Once I replaced the grommet not more problems. Check the insulator in the socket.

If this were the case then I don't think it would start white lighting when the socket is separated from the guard. In your case the short was in the socket.

[DHCJr]

To add to what larkmaj said is to disconnect the wire from the blade and test the connector seperately and see if you get a connection.

This is also a way of telling a Sabre connector from a Foil connector.

At a World Championship, I had a foreign fencer come up with a problem with her Foil. She had a Sabre connector on the weapon.

I would also suggest to test the blade with everything disconnected and no tip or spring. Touch one side of the bodycord to the blade and the other to the wire.

If there is still a short, check along the blade for any nicks in the insulation of the wire.

It is possible that when you wired the blade you either rubbed off the insulation or pinched the wire when tightening the barrel. You might also Slightly loosening the barrel and see if that ends the short.

[wescfencer011]

i have the same problem before. it turn out to be my washer got some wax on it short out the contact form guard to blade( i put wash infornt of the guard to make sure blade don't scratch the guard and easy to ID my blade. and my wash are zinc so is easy to crash and creat a solid tight connection between blade and guard) and the back of my guard are dirty also.

word of cautions. clead all your old part first, don't be lazy make sure every thing is clean and fit perfect on foil.

when check for fail problem all way isolate area. and start check off parts function properly.

most of the time to check wire are use a ohm meter. form the cup in the barral to the end wire( not the socket) some time socket loose and give false reading.

make sure you grip is tight and make full contact to push agaist the socket base to the back the guard

those are the most common problem on foil and very easy to over look.( i have wasted 2 wire and 6 hour on something like it before)