The Rise of College Club Teams

[debrobjosh]

We have been discussing fencing in college. According to this NY Times article, there is an explosion of club sport in colleges today.

Rise of College Club Teams Creates a Whole New Level of Success

Fencing is not specially mentioned, but the points raised are valid for fencing on campus. Some quotes:

It’s college athletics without the pageantry or prerogative, and that’s the way athletes in club sports like it. They devise the practices, make the team rules, decide whom to play and when, raise the money for uniforms and game officials, schedule the hotel and travel arrangements and manage the paperwork.

Because of this independent and inclusive spirit, competitive club sports have emerged as an alternative to the semiprofessional, regulated, commercial environment of modern, elite college athletics.

“Intramural sports can be too loose and not competitive enough,” said Tiffany Villalba, a senior on Villanova University’s women’s club soccer team, which won the open division at the national championships last season. “But the varsity teams, even if you make one, can be intense and require a lot of your free time. The club team fills that big gap between the two. It’s not too demanding, but it’s not trivial.”

My son goes to Rutgers and is an active member of their club team. While they have club dues, the university is also supporting them with enough money and a coach so that they don't have to raise money cleaning up after football games. (I have the gut feeling that once the last of the former varsity fencers graduate, the financing may change, but I hope not.)

I'm not sure if this type of fencing is for everybody, but at least for my son, fencing is still fun, and is not a "job".

[edew]

Anything to kill and obsolete and evil NCAA...

[Phrogger]

Good article. I was in a college club at Georgia, lots of passionate fencers but unfortunately not as organized as some of the clubs around today. It does take people with time, initiative and passion to make this work. This is one place a little USFA support could go a long way.

[oiuyt]

This is one place a little USFA support could go a long way.

Be more specific.

What would you like to see from US Fencing that would help support collegiate club programs?

-B

[noodle]

Be more specific.

What would you like to see from US Fencing that would help support collegiate club programs?

-B

here's a quick suggestion off the top of my head:

provide scholarships/stipends for lower levels of coaches' college to student-run collegiate clubs that apply for it.

[catwood1]

here's a quick suggestion off the top of my head:

provide scholarships/stipends for lower levels of coaches' college to student-run collegiate clubs that apply for it.

PLEASE!!! PRETTY PLEASE!!!!!!!

[emagdnim]

here's a quick suggestion off the top of my head:

provide scholarships/stipends for lower levels of coaches' college to student-run collegiate clubs that apply for it.

WE NEED IT!!!!

[Allen Evans]

I beleive the USFA Coach's College already has a scholarship plan, though I don't know the details.

AE

[noodle]

I beleive the USFA Coach's College already has a scholarship plan, though I don't know the details.

AE

iirc, it does, but its more of an open thing.

i'm talking about a larger program aimed towards the situations where students are teaching other students to fence. especially since they're more free over the summers.

p.s. the usfa coaches domain name is expired

[Phrogger]

Be more specific.

What would you like to see from US Fencing that would help support collegiate club programs?

-B

Well, knowhow is the best and cheapest method of support. A short guide to "Starting a Club Team" and a copy of "Sample Bylaws" would be a start, followed by information such as "Writing a Funding Request," "Accounting and Fundraising," and detailed information that will help students navigate such issues as campus "zero tolerance for weapons" policies that are often ridiculously applied to fencing gear.

Now I know a lot of people are going to say that this information is already available on the web. But it wouldn't take much for someone to consolidate such information on a single web page under the USFA banner.

Holding college club workshops could also be useful, where the USFA would provide an "expert" to answer questions in a classroom setting. As far as monetary support, that list could be endless. Grants for team equipment, coach training (already mentioned), the list goes on.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I agree with most of what Phrogger has said.

Additionally, there could be some sort of mentorship thing going on. Right now, all you've got is the opportunity to come to fencing.net and ask this community, which is great, but there are plenty of people with a wealth of information that don't spend time here. I suppose additionally you could talk to the Powers That Be within the USACFC, but the advice that Bruce and Jon have to offer is not equally useful to all--- UNH and UMass might be able to help each other, but Mount Holyoke would be better helped with advice from Smith.


Many club sports have national organizations that have a reasonable amount of power and organization. We don't. We've got a monarchy that can't organize a national event within a budget. It's a great step up from not having a national event at all, but where's the broader view? We've spent so much time arguing about how we fix the damn event we haven't considered the need to fix the organization. We might not need it now, but I'd like to hope that in 20 years there should be enough movement in college sports and in collegiate fencing so that we could have someone paid to deal with stuff at least part time. If we continue to act like spazzed out amateurs, we will never become professionals.

But the USFA also has to look into what they'll get from this. Some colleges compete only as USFA clubs, and that's great for the USFA, but the significantly more fun thing to do as a college team is to compete directly with other college teams in team events. Many of these fencers never become USFA members, or only do it 5-20 years after fencing in college. Great for long term growth, sure, but the USFA can do better. Incentives for college clubs to join the USFA? Tournaments targeted at colleges? (The New England Division might be able to make some money absorbing certain tournaments, and make things easier. Might. Maybe. I'm really just thinking with my fingers at this point...) If you make a focus of training college fencers to ref, the utter novices won't bite as much, but those with some fencing practice before college will bite, and they'll ref during college as well as right after, when they're in need of money and can be bought cheaply, which would be a strong benefit to the USFA. Some of this already happens, if you look at the number of refs produced by, say, Umass circa Brad's era-- was this unique of Brad being awesome?

In order for club sports to be an ongoing priority for the USFA, the USFA needs to get something out of it. And that's not bad, it can be something that's mutually beneficial. But there needs to be something there to tie the two together, or we might as well not bother in the first place.

[mrbiggs]

Incentives for college clubs to join the USFA?

Just throwing it out there, and this might be entirely infeasible financially, but what about a membership discount for college club fencers?

The $60 payment is a fairly large hurdle for some college fencers to overcome, especially those who fence casually. When I'm trying to get new fencers to go to tournaments with me and the other experienced fencers, this is often a huge issue.

[catwood1]

Just throwing it out there, and this might be entirely infeasible financially, but what about a membership discount for college club fencers?

The $60 payment is a fairly large hurdle for some college fencers to overcome, especially those who fence casually. When I'm trying to get new fencers to go to tournaments with me and the other experienced fencers, this is often a huge issue.

I agree with this. If the USFA realized that getting $25 from someone they otherwise would get $0 dollars from, they might be more inclined to allow it.

When total costs for a first USFA tournament can easily reach $100 without even mentioning equipment, college kids don't like it too much...


Edit*

OH! Another new idea. Create a club team "package." USFA membership for the club, (without the insurance) and 10 individual memberships for 400.

No one is hurt by this.
Possibly allow for a club team group discount. Get 10 USFA memberships for $250. Its still revenue to the USFA. And from a personal standpoint at GMU, we would then have 10 members, with the usfa getting $250, instead of where we are right now, which is 3 USFA members with the USFA getting 150.

[Sinestra]

The $60 payment is a fairly large hurdle for some college fencers to overcome, especially those who fence casually. When I'm trying to get new fencers to go to tournaments with me and the other experienced fencers, this is often a huge issue.

QFT.
The USFA membership cost is usually the first big hurdle I've encountered when working with new fencers who have finished a beginner's class, or are just getting back into the sport, and want to start competing. For a college student, that can be a lot of money.
Of course, I'm not sure that the USFA would be crazy about making less money off of individual college student memberships, but considering it would be likely to increase membership numbers, I think it would be worth looking in to.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I like the idea in theory. In practice, it becomes very messy.

How do you define a college student? Full time? Part time? 4 year colleges, or 2 year colleges? Tech schools? Online schools?

And how do they prove it? Tuition bill? I mean, Insurance companies ask for proof of collegeness all the time, and they can get it. But does this mean that in order to prove you're a college student, you'll have to mail in the proof? This would mean that you really couldn't sign up for the USFA the morning of a tournament, which college students wouldn't like either!

[noodle]

Well, knowhow is the best and cheapest method of support. A short guide to "Starting a Club Team" and a copy of "Sample Bylaws" would be a start, followed by information such as "Writing a Funding Request," "Accounting and Fundraising," and detailed information that will help students navigate such issues as campus "zero tolerance for weapons" policies that are often ridiculously applied to fencing gear.

Now I know a lot of people are going to say that this information is already available on the web. But it wouldn't take much for someone to consolidate such information on a single web page under the USFA banner.

Holding college club workshops could also be useful, where the USFA would provide an "expert" to answer questions in a classroom setting. As far as monetary support, that list could be endless. Grants for team equipment, coach training (already mentioned), the list goes on.

won't work.

the bylaws of the team i was on was a direct extension and was required to be in the format of the student body government's bylaws.

odds are, it is a similar situation elsewhere.

in addition, our club got something exactly like you're requesting from our student government. it shouldn't be the USFA's job to do what a student government should be doing.

[oiuyt]

in addition, our club got something exactly like you're requesting from our student government. it shouldn't be the USFA's job to do what a student government should be doing.

Should need to be, but if by doing it we can add value or make life easier for minimal cost, why not do it?

Do you have a copy of the Clemson materials you can forward?

-B

[noodle]

Should need to be, but if by doing it we can add value or make life easier for minimal cost, why not do it?

Do you have a copy of the Clemson materials you can forward?

-B

i'd have to dig around. i forget if i passed it down or kept it, since i put a lot of notes in it.

the issue that i see is that the handbook i received was very proprietary stuff associated with our university and its procedures/policies. a more generalized form could be created, but its not going to be as helpful as something generated on these exact same topics. i forsee a lot of "go talk to your student government about this" in there.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

My experience was far different- Smith College has previously let you do whatever you wanted with your bylaws, but recently they've tried to help people who are re-drafting bylaws. It's still very much up to the clubs, however. There's just more input on what ought to be addressed (like alcohol and sportsmanship policies).

Smith may be redrafting soon, as they're slightly changing the responsibilities of a few positions to make things make more sense. The outdated bylaws should be on the site-- if they're not on the current version, they're on one of the previous versions, which is linked to on the current version.

[Mo]

As far as the NCAA goes, can a college athlete fencing NCAA charge for teaching lessons to other students?
We were having this discussion the other night at the dinner table. Many clubs let the more advanced students teach the less advanced students to support their fencing habits.
Would it be "legal" for an NCAA fencer to do that?

The Momster