Coaches, How much do you tolerate??

[Mo]

If you noticed a kid in your club being hazed, as in hard hitting fencing, snotty behavior and generally treating one member of your club badly, what would you do?

Say the kid is a 12 year old girl being roughed up by 14-16 year old boys and girls, when do you say enough?

What responsibility does the coach (coaches) have to make this sort of behavior stop?

What if a sibling is taking his frustrations out on his brother or sister?

Just curious....

The Momster

[Applesauce and Foils]

I'd say enough as soon as it started happening.
Granted I'm new to this coaching business, but there's not going to be foul play in my club.
I would say that the coach has all the responsibility of making it stop. Who else is going to? The club president? What if they're not there all the time or don't care? The coach is there everytime the kids are, and being the authority-figure, has the power to make it come to an end.
Between sibs, I don't have experience correcting that yet but I've seen it happen. I guess I would say, don't fence while you're angry, and remind them that fencing is suppsosed to include good sportsmanship.

The other day I had two little ones fencing. One of them was kind of irritated with the other one winning the bout and how the ref had reffed it, and he barely shook hands and there was no "thank you". I said "Now wait a minute!" and made them shake, smile and say thanks. They were fine and his behavior improved on the spot.

AF

[Lady Quindecim]

If it is worth a card from a director, it is worth a timeout at a club.
Safety first.
An unhappy fencer will leave/quit.

I'm only fifteen, and not one of the club coached, but there is a saying - it takes a village to raise a child. Well, it takes a club to train a fencer, so, I think it is up to everyone.

But, there should be specific figures of authority - coach, captain, maybe team leaders in bigger clubs.

[darius]

If you noticed a kid in your club being hazed, as in hard hitting fencing, snotty behavior and generally treating one member of your club badly, what would you do?

There are so many possible solutions/punishments. It all comes down to communication - can one communicate in a way that effectively ends the behavior?

Say the kid is a 12 year old girl being roughed up by 14-16 year old boys and girls, when do you say enough?

As soon as the issue comes to the coach's attention.

What responsibility does the coach (coaches) have to make this sort of behavior stop?

If it's the coach's club, 100% responsibility.

What if a sibling is taking his frustrations out on his brother or sister?

I'd figure out all the information before punishing somebody. But at the end of the day, not in the club.

Take a deep breath and repeat ten times, "No member of my family fences there."

darius

[RITFencing]

I agree with Darius, but with the caveat that it's difficult to say exactly what my response would be without knowing the exact situation.

I would intervene as soon as I saw any sort of hazing going on, though, or any other sort of abuse, even if it's done because of things happening out of the club.

I think one of the coach's biggest responsibilities, especially when dealing with kids, is to make sure that it is a positive environment for all involved.

[Mo]

I agree with Darius, but with the caveat that it's difficult to say exactly what my response would be without knowing the exact situation.

I would intervene as soon as I saw any sort of hazing going on, though, or any other sort of abuse, even if it's done because of things happening out of the club.

I think one of the coach's biggest responsibilities, especially when dealing with kids, is to make sure that it is a positive environment for all involved.

I've had a lot of fencing friends all over the country which is why I was wondering about this. Some clubs seem so supportive of their fencers at meets. Others have kids who are just plain nasty to each other.
I was told that it is a method of teaching for some coaches. They pit the kids against each other. It is supposed to make them stronger fencers. It was very prevalent at the club we just escaped from and a few others I know about. They make no issue of it. That is the "way it is done!"
If the coaches are fostering bullying, even nurturing it, it is no wonder that there are no national camps with a good spirit of camaraderie to help fencers along that way.
That is not to say there aren't some great kids out there who ignore this stuff from the beginning.
It just seems pathetic to me that the parents buy into it and even contribute to the mayhem.

The Momster

[jBirch]

I'm with Darius and RIT...

If I identify the issue, then it ends. Trouble is identifying it. Some actions look mean to outsiders, but aren't. Others look innocent, but are destructive.

Too, sometimes the kids hide the behaviour well and it's never on display at a time when the coach can observe it and act on it. So you're stuck trying to act on rumour, which can cause more problems then it would solve.

*sigh* Sometimes I wish coaching were simply about teaching the kids how to move and how to use the blade instead of how to be decent human beings.

James.

[darius]

I was told that it is a method of teaching for some coaches. They pit the kids against each other. It is supposed to make them stronger fencers. It was very prevalent at the club we just escaped from and a few others I know about. They make no issue of it. That is the "way it is done!"

Sure - think about it, if you create a hyper-competitive environment from day 1, then make it so that the favorites at any given moment get extra attention (praise, lessons, etc), then everybody will be working hard to knock off the top dogs, thus becoming the favorites. If you leave ethical judgments out of it, it's a bright idea.

Even ignoring ethics, it's not necessarily best from a long-term model of athlete development. But keeping the kids post-high-school is a gamble, so why not just push them to be age-group champions?

It just seems pathetic to me that the parents buy into it and even contribute to the mayhem.

I'd go so far as to say that there are parents who are the primary drivers of the mayhem, maybe even more so than the coaches.

Obviously, I don't subscribe to this at all.

darius

[RITFencing]

*sigh* Sometimes I wish coaching were simply about teaching the kids how to move and how to use the blade instead of how to be decent human beings.

If you have to spend a great deal of time teaching the kid how to be a person, then there is something seriously wrong with their family life.

Everyone involved in a child's development to a serious degree is probably making some sort of impact (even if it's not the one they think) on that child's moral development, and we as coaches should be careful of what we show youngsters, but it is not our job to be the primary source of ethics in a kid's life.

[Allen Evans]

What looks like favoritism to one student/parent may look like rewarding hard work to another. No coach is going to cop to a Nietzsche approach to training fencers, even if that is what is occurring (by accident in most cases, I suspect) at his or her club.

I think a lot of these situations happen simply because of the difficulty in motivating fencers, and the competition for their attention and participation with other activities. As fencers in the US start younger and younger, the community needs to address these questions now to make sure that we learn from the mistakes of other sports (baseball and gymnastics come to mind). How do you motivate young fencers to succeed without turning acquiring and exercising skills into a competition?

This question has to be answered at a lot of levels, from the National (why do we have National Y10 competitions? Is this really a good idea? What message are we sending?) to parents (whose first question always seem to be how long it's going to take their kid to get a rating) to the coaches themselves (can you make fencing fun? Can you make a student acquire a skill fairly useless outside of the club without giving them a prize?). Everyone has answers to these questions, but I don't think those answers have been looked at very closely sometimes.

Don't get me wrong. At a certain point, who wins and loses is important. That's why we keep score, after all. And Americans on a whole don't play games for any other purpose other than winning them. I wonder, though, if this attitude is as important as early in a fencer's develpment as some coaches and parents think it should be.

AE

[Allen Evans]

Say the kid is a 12 year old girl being roughed up by 14-16 year old boys and girls, when do you say enough?

Wait. Didn't you have this girl fencing outside of her age group last week?

Now she's not being treated well by the older kids she's not supposed to be fencing?

I'm a little confused here.

[telkanuru]

No coach is going to cop to a Nietzsche approach to training fencers

Huh? You mean Machiavellian, or perhaps Darwinian? Or are you saying we shouldn't train the Ubermensch to fence?

[Mo]

Wait. Didn't you have this girl fencing outside of her age group last week?

Now she's not being treated well by the older kids she's not supposed to be fencing?

I'm a little confused here.

I was talking about nightly practices. However, there are a lot of 12 year olds with points in cadet. Only a few can do it in Junior but many more can make it into cadet.
The problem isn't at meets, it is at practices.
Well actually it is both places. Sigh....
The new coach she has in college runs a program where cooperation is very much encouraged. She is so happy there. The kids support each other. It works very well that way too. In college, there is no "I" in team.
It just makes me sad that kids have to battle so much emotionally as well as physically.
Maybe karma will catch up with the other clubs.
The Momster

[Allen Evans]

Or are you saying we shouldn't train the Ubermensch to fence?

The Ubermensch have better things to do with their time.

[big daddy]

I refuse to alow it. I'd jump on this behavior as soon as it occurs.Iv'e learned the hard way disruptive students which are almost always students that have too much free time during pratices are expensive.I was trained i that either you're fencing .drilling or geting ready to fence.

[MdA]

If you noticed a kid in your club being hazed, as in hard hitting fencing, snotty behavior and generally treating one member of your club badly, what would you do?

Say the kid is a 12 year old girl being roughed up by 14-16 year old boys and girls, when do you say enough?

What responsibility does the coach (coaches) have to make this sort of behavior stop?

What if a sibling is taking his frustrations out on his brother or sister?

The Momster

……
I'm only fifteen, and not one of the club coached, but there is a saying - it takes a village to raise a child. Well, it takes a club to train a fencer, so, I think it is up to everyone.

But, there should be specific figures of authority - coach, captain, maybe team leaders in bigger clubs.

…… we as coaches should be careful of what we show youngsters, but it is not our job to be the primary source of ethics in a kid's life.

There is obviously some important stuff in this thread. Most of the comments by Allen, Darius, and RIT are good advice. I am particularly impressed with the comment by Lady Quindecim….probably be a good coach in the future. IMO the coach is responsible to set the tone for the entire club and correct unsportsmanlike behavior immediately upon observation or report by another club member. The coach should also make it clear to other club leaders and parents that they should support the same rules at practice and away competitions…if not enforcing them.

The coach will not always seem correct in all eyes in these situations. My three sons have fenced in my clubs and I have dealt with the issue of sibling rivalry and I am sure that other parents have been unhappy with me on several occasions…I got a lot of feedback over the years …both directly and indirectly. I think the most important thing for a coach is to establish the fact that you will deal with these issues when they come up as fairly as possible.

While I agree with RIT that fencing coaches should not be the primary source of ethics in a child’s life, unfortunately sometimes this is the case. Fencing coaches are often the primary adult authority figure in a child’s life for a variety of complicated reasons.

The issue of a competitive club environment is a different issue IMO. I was watching the USC vs ND football game this weekend. The commentator mentioned that USC Head Coach Pete Carroll uses a competitive practice method. His team boasts the top talent and each player must compete for his starting position each week. I was thinking this must be great for recruiting. Each top player knows they can come in an win a starting position without waiting in line behind older players….but this must have its downsides also. It must be tough to keep up team loyalty and morale at times. USC has been known for the occasional meltdown over the years.

Most coaches coach the way they were coached. If they were developed in this type of "hyper-competitive" team environment, then they will probably follow the same method. This method seems to get results (as Darius points out) but, I don’t think it is good for very young athletes. They need a nurturing, supportive environment. I think it is up to the parents to find the right coach for their kids. This is sometimes difficult in towns where the choices are limited…also pointed out in other threads.

Back to the siblings again: The oldest needs the competitive environment and the younger needs the nurturing, supportive. What do you do? Find another club for the oldest? This won’t work for most parents unless you really want to make your life difficult. Some clubs offer different programs at different times…separate workouts for competitive fencers vs recreational or beginners. This complicates the job for the coach. When my kids were younger, the oldest would practice 3-4 times a week and the younger maybe 1-2 times. Sometimes the youngest would want to skip practice and play baseball or ride his bike with his friends. I would always give him a day off when he wanted it. My approach was that I wanted him.. to want come to fencing practice. It had to be his idea...not mine or his mother's....or his brother's which also got complicated when they were bouting partners.

I realize this gets complicated when the parent has paid in advance for a lesson plan or workout package. Work with your coach to reschedule lessons or workouts, if possible. Don’t be afraid to give your kids a day off…or a week if they need it….or put them in the recreational class when big sister is in the competitive class. Coaches remain flexible to the needs of your fencers….and this is the key. If you see great talent in a young fencer…but they can only handle the recreational class…for whatever reason…make the most of those sessions.

[dcmdale]

I've had a lot of fencing friends all over the country which is why I was wondering about this. Some clubs seem so supportive of their fencers at meets. Others have kids who are just plain nasty to each other.
I was told that it is a method of teaching for some coaches. They pit the kids against each other. It is supposed to make them stronger fencers. It was very prevalent at the club we just escaped from and a few others I know about. They make no issue of it. That is the "way it is done!"
If the coaches are fostering bullying, even nurturing it, it is no wonder that there are no national camps with a good spirit of camaraderie to help fencers along that way.
That is not to say there aren't some great kids out there who ignore this stuff from the beginning.
It just seems pathetic to me that the parents buy into it and even contribute to the mayhem.

The Momster

I've seen a couple of the strongly team-oriented from the inside and I think that the atmosphere is clearly set by the coach. In our first club:

• fencers were generally informally paired up and down with more experienced fencers (who were expected to help them) and less experienced fencers (who they were expected to help). This absolutely helped with things like hazing, partly because they would often become friends, but also because the coach had expectations of the older paired fencer that would not be wise to disappoint.
• fencers who were not actively fencing were "encouraged" to be present / cheering for teammates. So were parents.
• fencers were expected to help struggling teammates if the coach wasn't available.
• all "away" competitions included a team dinner for parents / fencers to help build relationships between parents.
• if a fencer found a move that "worked" against another fencer, they were expected to help that fencer understand what the weakness was.
• many practices started with the coach identifying fencers he had noted doing the above sort of things and occasionally castigating (usually not by name) behavior that was not team-building.
• good behavior was actively rewarded by bonus individual lesson time, getting taught a new move before your peers, strip coaching times at competitions, etc.

I've observed many of the same kind of "encouragements" at other strongly team-oriented clubs. I've also noticed that there is a correlation between team-building within clubs and the financial stability of the clubs: team oriented clubs seem to do a better job at retaining all levels of fencers--and their fees.

Our last club was a little different in its structure and while there was good relationships between the club fencers and their parents, in many ways, "team" almost happened at the divisional level in many cases. We had several top-8 fencers, but not a lot of age/weapon/gender overlap. I can't tell you how many times a coach from one of the other clubs would come by to help my daughter or a fencer from one of the other clubs would help her settle down during a difficult DE.

[Phrogger]

I'm encouraged by all of the positive coaches responding here. I'm an amateur coach, but as a former Marine and a parent to boot, I squash bad behavior when I see it. I do encourage competition between teammates, but at a healthy level (for example, relay races for conditioning), and we really have a good team spirit and encouraging, supportive parents.

I think the coaches have a huge responsibility with regards to being a leader, mentor, and role model to students. The Positive Coaching Alliance is one place coaches can go for tips and resources, and even offers workshops and training.

Does the USFCA have a code of ethics like the FOC does?

[MdA]

....
Does the USFCA have a code of ethics like the FOC does?

The USFCA does not have a Code of Ethics like the FOC. Ethics are incorporated into the Constitution and By-Laws. Rather than succumb to thread drift, I will post the relevant sections in the following thread along with a copy of the Constitution and By-Laws.

In defense of USFCA

[MdA]

The Ubermensch have better things to do with their time.

...like taking over the world.