In defense of USFCA

[MdA]

For those interested in continuing the ethics topic, here are a couple related threads…

Foundations of Ethical Coaching Behavior

Coaching fencing vs. ethics

[Hauptman]

Let's try this from a different angle. Coaching is a work environment. I think we can all agree with this. Some coaches may not be paid much (or at all) but it is a place of work. For me, it's my full-time occupation.

In working environments, it is considered inappropriate/ unprofessional/ unethical to date/ be married to someone you work directly with or in the same department. Sometimes this applies to all relations (ie children) but not always.

As a coach you should want to uphold the standards of other work environments. In doing so, you are seen as behaving in a professional, appropriate and/or ethical manner. In not doing so, you are behaving unprofessional and can be perceived as behaving unethically.

I agree with your proposition there, but even in a work environment the issue has to do with a team-work situation in which favoritism and/or abuse can occur, and not with the interaction between the husband and wife on its own. For example, no one really has a problem with a husband and wife working together in a small or family-owned business.

I still don't see the distinction between child versus spouse (significant other) because the same underlying problems exist with both.

[Mr Epee]

I still don't see the distinction between child versus spouse (significant other) because the same underlying problems exist with both.

Firstly, you, apparently, don't know the proper usage of the term 'significant other'. I know you're trying to be politically correct, but lazy use of terminology complicates the discussion.

Secondly, ARE YOU KIDDING? Seriously?

You don't see a difference between adult relationships of an intimate, and ultimately sexual nature, and the relationship that exists between parents and their children. That's amazing. Simply amazing. Can you explain how this doesn't make sense to you, because there is clearly some confusion?

[telkanuru]

You don't see a difference between adult relationships of an intimate, and ultimately sexual nature, and the relationship that exists between parents and their children.

Michael Jackson has a kid, doesn't he?

[jBirch]

I agree with your proposition there, but even in a work environment the issue has to do with a team-work situation in which favoritism and/or abuse can occur, and not with the interaction between the husband and wife on its own. For example, no one really has a problem with a husband and wife working together in a small or family-owned business.

I still don't see the distinction between child versus spouse (significant other) because the same underlying problems exist with both.

Try firing your wife some time. Or being fired by her.

The problem isn't the environment, it's the power relationship.

James.

[Fencergrl]

For example, no one really has a problem with a husband and wife working together in a small or family-owned business.

As others have pointed out, you haven't really thought your argument out. We're not talking about two equals working together in their own family run business. My husband and I do this and of course, there is nothing unethical, or unfair or unprofessional about it, as we are both equal partners.

If he was my boss (regardless of the size of the business) or vice versa, it would be a different matter. Just like a coach-student dynamic. One person is in charge and the other person isn't. Normally, a couple are equal partners, so this is a change in their roles. The child-parent relationship however, nothing changes in their roles. The parent remains as the person with power. There is a reason standard business ethics and professionalism are this way. It makes everything much more difficult.

As you stated, it breaks down to fairness. And yes, a coach may favour (or be harder on) their own child or spouse. Which is why coaching your own child may be considered unwise. With parent-child it may be unfair, but isn't inherently unfair.

However with a spouse.... as stated before, it's messier. First, the roles are different. They are not equals in a coaching situation. Secondly an organization (USFA or whatever) need a good place to draw the line about ethics. Not sleeping with your students, whether you're married, living together, gay, straight, whatever... is a good place to put that line. Like it or not, you would less likely be considered behaving inappropriate by your customers, and peers if you don't have sex with the people you coach.

If you're single and meet someone who happens to be your student. Then suggest she/ he get another coach before you become involved. It may seem like you're jumping through a hoop, but it's about abiding by the standards of your sporting organization. It demonstrates that you are aware it is not only unwise but unethical. It shows as a coach, you know how to make good decisions and not just take the easy way out. It shows that you are thinking with the right head.

[prototoast]

I still don't see the distinction between child versus spouse (significant other) because the same underlying problems exist with both.

Because if coaching one's child was no longer tolerated, the entire world of youth sports would crumble.

[Hauptman]

Because if coaching one's child was no longer tolerated, the entire world of youth sports would crumble.

Bingo!!! We have a winner.

Please people (and others), don't treat me like a moron and I'll return the favor.

Tell me the specific ethical results that are at stake here; examples would be nice. Are there possible pitfalls to coaching your spouse or significant other? Of course there are, but there is absolutely nothing un-ethical about it, and there is certainly no reason to ban it as such.

At least as two adults they can each excercise some control of the situation, but a child has few options. To clearly state that coaching your child is fine, but that coaching your spouse is un-ethical is an amazing over-simplification.

Again, can anyone show examples differentiating the possible ethical issues that arise from coaching your child versus coaching your spouse that makes the one un-ethical but the other not?

[keith]

At least as two adults they can each exercise some control of the situation, but a child has few options. To clearly state that coaching your child is fine, but that coaching your spouse is un-ethical is an amazing over-simplification.

No one is arguing that for a theoretical pair of individuals, who are emotionally mature and understand the psychological and emotional nuances of the power dynamic in a coach/student relationship, this cannot work.

On the other hand everyone knows someone whose hundred year old great grandmother smoked three packs a day, got all her nutrition from gin and sent herself to sleep every night with an opium pipe.

Organisations have ethical rules concerning appropriate/inappropriate behaviour because some people cannot successfully navigate these relationships and when things go pear shaped they can do so spectacularly.

[Fencergrl]

Tell me the specific ethical results that are at stake here; examples would be nice. Are there possible pitfalls to coaching your spouse or significant other? Of course there are, but there is absolutely nothing un-ethical about it, and there is certainly no reason to ban it as such.

There is a difference between ethics and unwise decisions. It isn't about specific pitfalls. It's about an organization giving clear guidelines for their members to abide by, so parents/ clients are assured that coaches within the organization are behaving in a professional and ethical manner.

It's not about preventing a coach having a better or worse relationship with their wife, husband, child etc... because of his/her decision to coach that person.

[Hauptman]

There is a difference between ethics and unwise decisions. It isn't about specific pitfalls. It's about an organization giving clear guidelines for their members to abide by, so parents/ clients are assured that coaches within the organization are behaving in a professional and ethical manner.

It's not about preventing a coach having a better or worse relationship with their wife, husband, child etc... because of his/her decision to coach that person.

Ok, I completely agree with that. I don't question the complexities of intimate relationships, but you're avoiding the question I am asking.

A clear distinction was made that coaching your spouse is clearly un-ethical and coaching your child is fine. I easily acknowledge the shades of gray involved in both, but why is one clear and the other not?

In my mind, erring on the side of caution, I would prohibit the sensitive issue involving a child, and let adults decide for themselves. I don't understand the rationale for the opposite position, as no one has actually made the argument yet.

[Hauptman]

No one is arguing that for a theoretical pair of individuals, who are emotionally mature and understand the psychological and emotional nuances of the power dynamic in a coach/student relationship, this cannot work.

On the other hand everyone knows someone whose hundred year old great grandmother smoked three packs a day, got all her nutrition from gin and sent herself to sleep every night with an opium pipe.

Organisations have ethical rules concerning appropriate/inappropriate behaviour because some people cannot successfully navigate these relationships and when things go pear shaped they can do so spectacularly.

The exact same argument can be made regarding the coaching of your child as well as your spouse. I can easily see regulating both (or neither), but finding one ethical and the other not makes little sense.

[Fencergrl]

but you're avoiding the question I am asking.

No I'm trying to avoid repeating myself. I think others and I in this thread have covered it. Frankly, I'm running out of ways to say the same thing in different ways.

To review:
I pointed out that in other work environments the same applies. In many companies, having your child work in the same department is less of an issue than a spouse or someone you are dating.

Here's another example. a) A single teacher is attracted to one of his adult students. They want to date. He waits until she is no longer in his class.

b) A single teacher is attracted to one of his students and sleeps with her while she is still a student in his class.

c) A teacher in a school has his son go to the same school. One of his classes is his dad's class.

Off the top of your head, which situation will get the most people talking and questioning the ethics and professionalism of the teacher?

Ethics mostly come down to community standards and how others (clients, the community, peers) perceive you. It is a line in the sand. Coaching your own child is perceived as not as bad of a decision, than sleeping with one of your students. Maintaining good ethics benefits everyone. The coach, as well as the sporting organization. I believe the guidelines are there to make it easier for coaches to negotiate through these situations and make decisions that don't reflect badly on them and their club.

[jBirch]

Last I checked, children couldn't break up with their parents.

Can you imagine coaching your ex?

*shudder*

James.

[telkanuru]

All of the above examples make me not only question the ethics of said teacher, but question why (s)he is still employed.

Anyone who does any of those things has no business in the profession. The ones involving sex just make them have less business in the profession.

[oso97]

Last I checked, children couldn't break up with their parents.

Can you imagine coaching your ex?

*shudder*

James.

True, but also consider, if the coaching relationship between a parent and child goes sour, the child has no way to sever it. Some who've posted on this board may call this "community standards." I call it a potentially exploitative relationship. Between adults, one of them is always free to walk away. A child has no such option.

Oh, and to rebut your points, Fencergrl, there are numerous examples in the scientific community of spouses who work in the same institution, and even within the same department. I've personally worked for four different Principle Investigators, at three different public universities. Three of them had spouses who were also Principle Investigators - and had been specifically recruited by the institutions as a couple. In one case, they were members of the same department, and shared common space and meeting space.

By contrast, I've never known a single Principle Investigator whose child attended or worked for the university at which he was a faculty member. And I've known a lot of PI's over the years.

[jBirch]

I'd like to point out that there is a difference between a COACH and an INSTRUCTOR. The former requires a level of intimate control that the latter lacks.

For example, we've had questions of nutrition and questions of sex and how they relate to performance. Telling a woman to lose weight as her husband and as her coach are two completely different messages. Telling a man to refrain from sex for a week before competition as his wife and as his coach are again very different messages.

See how these messages can get confused in the context of a spousal relationship? Can you imagine what would happen if the coach started to enforce the regimen at home?

How about the constant criticism and "kicking in the arse" that a coach has to do? Can you see how much more damaging to a spouse then to a child that is?

A student must submit, completely, to the teachings of the master. This is why we talk about "coachability" and how important that state of mind is to the learning process. It's also why it's so very important to keep family and friends outside of this relationship.

But it's kind of an expected state for one's children to be in. They submit to your will as a parent in all things. That's the state of affairs for kids.

In addition to the power differential that we've been speaking about and the fact that coaching is a very intimate relationship (part priest, part doctor, all sport), there is a strong emotional component when dealing with spouses that bears consideration.

What I mean by that is that the coaching process passes through a prism of emotion. We criticise, we encourage, we discipline, we reward, we comment, we ignore, all to get the skills into the student. When these actions are directed at a spouse, they are amplified and confused much more so then as a child. It's hard for the student to know whether you are wearing your coach hat or your spouse hat when you say things like, "You are acting too defensively."

True, that emotional component is roughly analogous to the one that exists between parent and child. And true, there is a consideration of availability to be had as many coaches begin coaching to be with their children.

And most coaches realise that it is very unwise to coach their own kids even if it's not sanctionally un-ethical.

Personally, I would absolutely add "coaching your kids" to the list of unethical behaviour.

When you add the power component, the intimate component and the emotional component of coaching spouses together, the cons far out-weigh the pros.

It's just good sense.

And I made the comment about "cognitive dissonance" earlier because I suspect that a number of coaching members here are already coaching their spouses without realising that it is potentially unethical.

Rest assured, it doesn't make you a bad person, but you really should take a hard look about which relationship is more important to you: the master/student or the husband/wife. And to make sure that it is clear to you which one will lose if you need to choose.

And also to realise that whichever you choose, the other will suffer.

Hope this helps.

James

[jBirch]

True, but also consider, if the coaching relationship between a parent and child goes sour, the child has no way to sever it. Some who've posted on this board may call this "community standards." I call it a potentially exploitative relationship. Between adults, one of them is always free to walk away. A child has no such option.

You're right.

But that potential exists as a fact of the parental relationship. If I abuse my kid, it's hard for him to get away.

Adding the coaching role hasn't really changed anything.

James.

[oso97]

They submit to your will as a parent in all things. That's the state of affairs for kids.

Really? *Chuckle* and how many children have you raised? I've NEVER seen any healthy parent/child relationship where the child submitted to the parent "in all things" past the age of reason.

[jBirch]

Really? *Chuckle* and how many children have you raised? I've NEVER seen any healthy parent/child relationship where the child submitted to the parent "in all things" past the age of reason.

LOL!

You're right.

Again.

But you get the point: they're SUPPOSED to submit. Just like good students are.

Besides, I'm sure you've said the same thing to a student as their parents did with wildly different results.

Which, again, is why it's unwise to coach one's kids. It would be unethical if one were to use the coaching relationship inappropriately at home: ie// do your homework or I'll make you do 100 pushups at the club.

Perhaps that's the distinction that Hauptman is getting at? That it's not the power relationship itself that is unethical, but rather the abuse of that power relationship?

James.