In defense of USFCA

[ivlobane]

*sigh* Not nuts....but still curious why any organization would want to resist putting ANY objective criteria in place for any sort of behavior on the part of their membership. Especially when in terms of professional behavior, teaching, subject matter.....almost anything you could name, there are plenty of models out there to copy from that would improve the organization substantially.

It seems that any time suggestions are made to the USFCA about making it relevant there is an objection about how difficult it might be, how it can't be done in an amateur organization, and.....the list of excuses seems endless. To the rank and file (like me) it seems that the USFCA is happy to take my money and do little for me except promise to be better next year. Give me certification? I'll say it again: Being a "fencing expert" on F.net has gotten me more cred than my Prevot diploma, which would be laughable, if it wasn't so sad. Spur me to write papers on fencing or do research? I think my website is good testimony to that fact that I've been able to do that without the promise of another diploma. Put me in touch with other coaches? I do that at every NAC I attend, which I button hole coaches and ask them questions.

I'm not holding anyone personally responsible for this state of affairs -- and certainly not you, MdA -- and while I admire your loyalty, you have to admit that proselytising in the face of some of the obvious difficulties of the organization sometimes runs a little thin. I want to be a member of a professional organization that represents me as a coach. It's just that the USFCA doesn't seem to want to be that organization.

AE

This might make you nauseous, Allen, but you expressed my sentiments about the USFCA quite precisely. So if two very different people can agree that the USFCA is essentially useless, there is something wrong with it. I'm sure there were instances where it was not 100% useless, but everything available online and via word of mouth does not compute as a cost effective way to spend time and money.

So what am I doing in this thread? Why not let yall just stew in your own verbage juice?

Due to my recent dealings with an all-girls private school, I've decided I'd like to get some sort of piece of paper that states that I am an accredited all-ethical super moralist non-student dater. Maybe somewhere in there "fencing instructor" will fit as well.
Going through the teacher certs is out of the question as I already have a day job. So next logical step was considering some sort of fencing cert.... After reading and listening to some people, I think it might be more cost effective and educational to go to Belarus, Ukraine or Russia and get someone from a PhysEd school drunk then sign a diploma for me.

Instant Fencing Master!

[telkanuru]

I think it might be more cost effective and educational to go to Belarus, Ukraine or Russia and get someone from a PhysEd school drunk then sign a diploma for me.

That's a *lot* of booze. Damn Russians do party cups of vodka...

[Allen Evans]

I think it might be more cost effective and educational to go to Belarus, Ukraine or Russia and get someone from a PhysEd school drunk then sign a diploma for me.

Or, alternately, you could attend the USFA's Coaches College, or the AAI course in Germany and get actual training as a coach.

I don't know about the AAI course, but the USFA's courses will give you a certificate of completion. Not the same as having a Master's Diploma, I guess, but you can do what I suspect some coaches are doing already, and show everyone a copy of your birth certificate in Cyrillic letters if they ask. No one is going to be the wiser.

AE

[ivlobane]

Or, alternately, you could attend the USFA's Coaches College, or the AAI course in Germany and get actual training as a coach.

I don't know about the AAI course, but the USFA's courses will give you a certificate of completion. Not the same as having a Master's Diploma, I guess, but you can do what I suspect some coaches are doing already, and show everyone a copy of your birth certificate in Cyrillic letters if they ask. No one is going to be the wiser.

AE

Unfortunately, my Cyrillic birth certificate got lost on the boat. All I have is a US passport and a pretty laminated USFA card.

[MdA]

..... I want to be a member of a professional organization that represents me as a coach. It's just that the USFCA doesn't seem to want to be that organization.
AE

The tools for change are posted in this thread….the Constitution and By-Laws. You, and I, and a few other members could pass this by a voice vote at the next Annual General Meeting in August 2009.

I am not saying it can’t be done. I am just giving examples of why it may not have been done….yet.

When I was President, and on the Executive Committee...8 years. I did as much as I could. But, unfortunately right now, I can’t take on anymore….it is time for others to take a turn at the wheel.

F.net is great but, I am not sure of the impact. You can do whatever you want...and also nothing here....its like virtual reality. There are a lot of great ideas here but, people just graze....and the other thing that cows do...note recent post.

Operating a non-profit association is tough….you have to do what the members want….and sometimes you have to convince them.

You and I are are part of the handful of members who read F.net.

[MdA]

......After reading and listening to some people, I think it might be more cost effective and educational to go to Belarus, Ukraine or Russia and get someone from a PhysEd school drunk then sign a diploma for me.
Instant Fencing Master!

Thanks ivlobane. I think you have just made all my points for me.

"Welcome aboard the Black Pearl, Miss Turner"

[telkanuru]

Thanks ivlobane. I think you have just made all my points for me.

"Welcome aboard the Black Pearl, Miss Turner"

Your constant pirate quotations make me feel inexplicably violent towards the world.

Also, no he didn't.

[jBirch]

After reading and listening to some people, I think it might be more cost effective and educational to go to Belarus, Ukraine or Russia and get someone from a PhysEd school drunk then sign a diploma for me.

Nah. Come to Canada. We have manuals and ethics and criminal records checks. Everything you need to prove you're an "all-ethical super moralist non-student dater".

James.

[MdA]

........
Also, no he didn't.

OK..maybe just this one.

"There is no authority in the world (not the least of which includes the FIE, USFA or the USFCA) to stop you from being a fencing coach. In fact, the USFA will actually encourage just about anybody. The USFA even started issuing fencing coach ID cards at NACs and at the Summer National Championships in Atlanta in July 2006. All you needed to do was go up to the registration table, declare yourself a coach with proof of USFA membership and they issued you a photo ID card that said “Coach” with the USFA logo on it."

[pjsise1]

Presenting one's desires for change in the USFCA, making suggestions concerning the direction of change, and expressing desire to help with that change are all productive and good. This thread can't accomplish anything concrete though. If you are a member of an organization and wish to see change in that organization you have the power to bring about that change at the meetings, and I encourage Allen and others (who complain about the USFCA but for some reason still show up at USFCA functions) to make motion to put those changes, such as a more precise ethics requirement, into the USFCA bylaws. Sometimes the only way to get an organization to represent you is to take charge of it.... so if need be run for office and see to it that the changes are made (or find out exactly why those changes haven't been put into place).

I find it hard to believe though that having the USFCA adopt the USOC ethics codes would magically change the organization and make people more likely to join. I'm not saying it wouldn't be a good idea... but let's be realistic, this is not what people usually have asked for in the USFCA. If anything it has been faster, more reliable service when sending certificates or more clinics.

[Allen Evans]

.... I encourage Allen and others (who complain about the USFCA but for some reason still show up at USFCA functions)

Actually, I've shown up at one USFCA function in the last three years or so (the annual meeting this last summer) accompaning my wife (a Life member). To attend this meeting, I had to join the USFCA again, after having let my membership expire.

Ordinarily, I wouldn't respond to these threads about the USFCA. I am working hard to be a better coach without their help, though I greatly admire individual members of the organizaiton, and some of them have benefited me greatly. I do respond when I feel that posts rah-rahing the USFCA don't always give a balanced view of the organization (from the point of view of a rank and file member, since both you and MdA have held positions in the organization and have a different view). I also have to admit that I get weary of the "poor USFCA, no one really understands them" tone that I hear on occasion.

AE

[prototoast]

OK..maybe just this one.

"There is no authority in the world (not the least of which includes the FIE, USFA or the USFCA) to stop you from being a fencing coach. In fact, the USFA will actually encourage just about anybody. The USFA even started issuing fencing coach ID cards at NACs and at the Summer National Championships in Atlanta in July 2006. All you needed to do was go up to the registration table, declare yourself a coach with proof of USFA membership and they issued you a photo ID card that said “Coach” with the USFA logo on it."

You defend your claim that he made your point, by quoting something else that you wrote in a previous thread?

Or, to put it in terms you can understand: harr, matey! Y'are spouting bull****.

[Mr Epee]

The tools for change are posted in this thread….the Constitution and By-Laws. You, and I, and a few other members could pass this by a voice vote at the next Annual General Meeting in August 2009.

I am not saying it can’t be done. I am just giving examples of why it may not have been done….yet.

Just so we're clear, the USFCA by-laws/constitution don't need to be modified to adopt a professional code of ethics... do they?

Operating a non-profit association is tough….you have to do what the members want….and sometimes you have to convince them.

Interesting how you've confused pandering with leadership. They aren't the same thing, even in the most democratic of organizations. But, confusing the two concepts is a Betty-Crocker recipe for ineffectiveness, and also an occasional disaster.

[Mr Epee]

After reading that document, I'm struck by something.

Was it the 'stupid stick' perchance?

Why is it verboten to coach a spouse, but okay to coach one's own child? If anything, the latter relationship is more volitile, more frought with emotional involvment, and has just as much potential to harm the athlete.

yup.

Actually, this is a great example of why it's important for an organization like the USFCA to have a formalized code of ethics. Some people simply lack the foresight/ability to understand their own actions... ignoring for a moment the individuals who unscrupulously exploit the coach-student dynamic to satiate their own emotional and carnal desires.

[oso97]

Was it the 'stupid stick' perchance?



Wow... I guess it was.

Funny, I was expecting you to contribute something positive to the conversation. Guess I should have known from your previous behavior that a tiger just can't change his stripes.

[Mr Epee]

Funny, I was expecting you to contribute something positive to the conversation. Guess I should have known from your previous behavior that a tiger just can't change his stripes.

Don't be mad at me because you don't understand the foundations of ethical coaching relationships. In fact, I'm trying to help you. You ought to thank me.

Just think if there were a formal guide then coaches might have something concrete with which to rebuff the desires of their peckers.

You don't want a bunch of people running around ruining the reputation of the profession due to ignorance of ethical behavior, do you? I think not.

We're on the same side, here. Really.

[ivlobane]

After reading that document, I'm struck by something.

Why is it verboten to coach a spouse, but okay to coach one's own child? If anything, the latter relationship is more volitile, more frought with emotional involvment, and has just as much potential to harm the athlete.

Seriously, Oso? How is it that all your previous previousness not able to provide for an answer to that question?

[oso97]

Don't be mad at me because you don't understand the foundations of ethical coaching relationships. In fact, I'm trying to help you. You ought to thank me.

Just think if there were a formal guide then coaches might have something concrete with which to rebuff the desires of their peckers.

You don't want a bunch of people running around ruining the reputation of the profession due to ignorance of ethical behavior, do you? I think not.

We're on the same side, here. Really.

Actually, no, we're not on the same side. I'm not sure exactly who's side you're on, other than your own.

However, in an attempt to get back to the question at hand ... You're saying that because its written down, then that is the reason. I was wondering more about the philosophical underpinnings that support it. I've seen plenty of ... well, not evidence, because simply pointing to a document someone wrote does not make it evidence, but I will give it the designation of postulate, that a coaching relationship between spouses is unethical. And there has been some level of discourse about the nature of the unethicality (inequalities, perceived biases, favoritism, etc) that could support that position. That is not the matter at hand.

I'm inquiring about a possible matter that is, oh, the shocking!, not covered in that lovely little manual from the USOC. Namely, a coaching relationship between a parent and child. Certainly there is the potential for biases, favoritism, and abuse. So, in an effort to advance the field, forward, is there the possibility of unethical behavior in this kind of coaching relationship? Maybe, maybe not, but your response didn't even come close to actually discussing the matter.

Unless, you're going to just say, "We're only going to consider the kinds of things discussed in the USOC guide," in which case, you're not really prepared to actually contribute to the discussion.

My position is that while the USOC guide is a good place to start, its woefully lacking in a number of different areas. Anyone who's taken so much as a semester of Ethics and Logic can see the holes a mile wide in it. Its really not that well written, nor is it internally consistent. It needs review by some people who actually think about and do ethics for a living. I can just imagine what a professional ethicist would have to say about it.

[Mr Epee]

In addition to the quite clear explanation that you've already been given, you should understand that an insoluble teacher-student relationship exists between parents and children. That you, for whatever reason, refuse to admit understanding the value of balance and equality in consensual adult relationships is fascinating, simply fascinating.

Considering that you attribute statements to me that I haven't made, I sincerely hope you will reread, and redirect your bluster.

[RITFencing]

Don't be mad at me because you don't understand the foundations of ethical coaching relationships. In fact, I'm trying to help you. You ought to thank me.

I think he's probably more mad about your "stupid stick" comment.

I agree with you on just about every count here, Mr E, but I also find it highly ironic that you call someone stupid in the same thread that you espouse a professional code of conduct for fencing coaches.