Tip Types: Features and Benefits

[foibles]

What are the different (electric) foil and épée tip brands/ types and what is the general consensus regarding their comparative features and benefits?

When I hit the drop-down menus for upgraded tips, I find I lack the info to make an informed decision.

While there are certainly threads that discuss tips, and I've read more than a few, I didn't find a good side-by-side feature/ benefit look at them.


My thanks in advance =)
foibles

[erooMynohtnA]

Foil

Sport 7 French tip:
+ Economical
+ More durable and better machining than knockoffs

- Rough travel
- Poor screws
- Easily mashed screws
- Can crack barrels

Generic French tip:
+ Cheap

- Break easily
- Poor travel
- Poor quality
- Lack compatability with other French tips
- Plastic bearing surfaces
- Complete garbage
- Easily cracked barrels

German tip:
+ Very smooth travel
+ High quality machining
+ Good springs

- Easily mashed screws
- Easily Dented barrels

V2 German tip:
+ Very smooth travel
+ High quality machining
+ Good springs

- Easily mashed screws
- $$

next gen German tip:
+ Smooth travel
+ Countersunk screws
+ Rugged
+ Don't have to take screws all the way out to remove tip
+ High quality machining
+ Good springs

- $
LP:
+ Countersunk screws
+ Completely compatible with LP GT
+ Same screws as epee
+ Very rugged

- Plastic bearing surface
- Very poor wires
- Poor springs
LP GT:
+ Countersunk screws
+ Same screws as epee
+ Completely compatible with regular LP
+ Elegant design
+ Don't have to take screws out all the way to disassemble
+ Very durable

- Poor springs
- Very poor wires
- Requires occasional cleaning

Estoc screwless:
+ No screws

- Fragile
- $$$

Schermasport screwless:
+ No screws

- Wears out
- $$$$$$

Schermasport screwless knockoff:
+ No screws

- Wears out



Epee

French:
+ Cheapest

- Lowest quality
- Worst travel

German:
+ Nice travel
+ Good machining
+ Durable

- $$


LP:
+ Great screws
+ Same screws as foil

- Finicky contact springs
- Terrible wires

LP GT:
+ Smooth travel
+ Great screws
+ Compatible with foil screws

- Finicky contact springs
- Terrible wires
- $$



The basic idea among most fencers is that FWF Next Gen foil and FWF epee are the gold standard. Following that, LP, following that, Sport 7. Following that, no ones cares.

I think LP stuff is super durable, so it's a good idea for club weapons. But I get German stuff for all my weapons.

[erooMynohtnA]

To put it more succintly, you get what you pay for.

[foibles]

Mr. Moore, you are made of awesome. That post once again proves it.

So... If I'm dropping coin on a serious blade, I certainly think an extra $10.00 or more on a good tip/ wire/ wiring is worth it to me. I also remember sitting on a gym floor in college, between rounds, feverishly replacing (loosing) screws with sweaty, shaking hands praying that I wouldn't be called to strip before I was done...

I can, thank goodness, afford more than two weps atm, but still...

Thoughts on screw-less tips?

[Rick Shellhouse]

Ive got a two year old Swordmaster Screwless Epee tip still going strong...


not that my opinion counts....


R

[oiuyt]

Thoughts on screw-less tips?

Note that they are currently illegal for FIE competition. Which, in turn, means they are illegal for domestic competition in many (non-US) countries which always maintain rules compatibility with the FIE.

May or may not apply to you now or in the future, but worth noting.

Not on the list above are ZipTips for epee. The same caveat I've mentioned applies to them. Big plus is no screws are required at all. Which makes losing screws both considerably more difficult and less important. I have no first-hand experience with them.

edit: Just to be very clear and state it explicitly, screwless tips, including ZipTips, are currently legal when fencing under US Fencing rules. That is not expected to change in the future.

-B

[noodle]

i really like my zip tips. i've been running for almost 2 years on a 6 pack to fill 3 epees.

[foibles]

Sure it counts, Mr. Shellhouse. You know what you know.

[bigdawg2121]

Not sure about Anthony's experience but I don't know many people that have problems with worn out Schermasport screwless tips for either weapon.

The knockoffs tend to have weak springs, and the epee knockoffs seem to have inconsistent machining in my experience.

Otherwise, they're pretty much uber-awesome (still very, very expensive).



The Estoc ones I'm not much of a fan of.

[migopod]

Full disclosure: clubmate of mine makes Ziptips.

That disclosed, Re Ziptips:

+ easy removal for adjustment (special tool)
+ no screws to lose during bouts
+ no screws to lose while making adjustments to contact/pressure spring
+ fits both German and French barrels
+ nylon body, so travel is very smooth even on barrels that have machining imperfections.

- $$$, but not near as $$$ as the Schermasport or Estoc screwless.
- not FIE legal, but perfectly fine for US domestic competition.
- does not make that clicky sound. No big deal for actual hooked-up fencing, but in lessons it's not as nice.

+||- orange. Either plus or minus depending on your fondness for orange.

Early runs of Ziptips suffered from some breakage issues and contact spring slipping issues. More recent runs do not have these problems. I tend towards the gentle hits, so I can't say I've really abused my Ziptips, but one of mine has survived two broken blades and is now in its third.

[foibles]

Put a new barrel/ tip on a dry blade? Of course.
Move a tip system from a broken blade to a new one? Only in a pinch would one do that.

Used to be, as I dimly recall, you couldn't hardly even replace a tip system at all as the contacts, once set in the barrel, were in there pretty much for good.

I guess high-end tip systems are far better than they used to be.

That's a good thing.

[erooMynohtnA]

Not sure about Anthony's experience but I don't know many people that have problems with worn out Schermasport screwless tips for either weapon.

The knockoffs tend to have weak springs, and the epee knockoffs seem to have inconsistent machining in my experience.

Otherwise, they're pretty much uber-awesome (still very, very expensive).



The Estoc ones I'm not much of a fan of.

I am actually super stoked about the springs in my knockoffs of the Scherma foil design. I've used the same tips with no adjustment for over a year, and they still pass weight (and not by having the springs over tension at 700 g, they're very close to 500).

That contrasts with the LP foil springs, which I can set to almost pass epee, and after half a day, will fail.

As to the wearing out of the genuine Schermasport, I'm talking about the little rubber O-ring where you screw the tip in. It loses its elasticity. It's not a big deal, but when the tip costs $40 it is.

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

Regarding foil points, I have to give a big thumbs-up to NextGen. While I STILL find one getting crushed from time to time, the problem is not nearly as bad as it was with the regular German points.

ALSO: I NEVER lose screws. The extra thickness makes it easy to back the screws out enough so that I can remove the tip and spring, mount it on a blade, and re-assemble the point without ever having removed the screws at all.

[Nolano]

Epee tips:

German tips are really nice in my experience, and I don't really have any complaints about them. Just replace the screws with Leon Paul screws and everything will be great.

The base LP tips are almost as good as german points. While the contact spring system takes some getting used to, once you remember what to do it's easy. Really, all you need to do is thread the spring down the post all the way, and viola! it passes shims! Their pressure springs can be weak, but so far I haven't had many fail on me. If you're worried about it, use german springs. They have nice travel, as well. The only think I'd say is definitely use a different wire.

The GT LP points, I actually have not used, but as I understand, they're the same as the base tips, but with tighter tolerances and the PTFE coating. Sounds good to me.

Zip tips, againt, haven't used them, but I've heard good things, mostly. The biggest concerns I've heard are about durability and that they're a little tight in german barrels.

French: Don't bother. The others REALLY aren't that much more expensive, and are leaps and bounds better. In fact, the LP point is pretty much the same price. Way better. Trust me.

[bigdawg2121]

I am actually super stoked about the springs in my knockoffs of the Scherma foil design. I've used the same tips with no adjustment for over a year, and they still pass weight (and not by having the springs over tension at 700 g, they're very close to 500).

That contrasts with the LP foil springs, which I can set to almost pass epee, and after half a day, will fail.

As to the wearing out of the genuine Schermasport, I'm talking about the little rubber O-ring where you screw the tip in. It loses its elasticity. It's not a big deal, but when the tip costs $40 it is.

With the knockoffs that exactly what I'm talking about. I've had to stretch the springs in between every bout for both of the tips I tested. I haven't fenced a tournament this season but I'm not sure they'd pass more than once or twice more max. It's just way too inconsistent it seems.

[TodG]

You can save a lot of lost screws if you magnetize you screwdriver.

We've standardized on German tips for epee, and LP for foil. But only because I have tons of LP foil tips.

Ziptips look very interesting and I'm going to order some.

[DangerMouse]

As to the wearing out of the genuine Schermasport, I'm talking about the little rubber O-ring where you screw the tip in. It loses its elasticity. It's not a big deal, but when the tip costs $40 it is.

Except that you can buy a bag of O-rings for about the same as a bag of screws.

[telkanuru]

I'll start off by saying I'm terribly abusive of my points. I tend to slam them into my opponent's guard and the floor regularly with a large amount of force. Even if I'm not hitting a hard target, I tend towards counter-time actions that result in hits with a lot of force.

Zip and Estoc Screwless tips simply can't hold up to it. Their life expectancy is easily measured in bouts or touches when I've tried them.

I've had huge issues with French tips as well, even dating to the time when the way I fenced wasn't so unkind to my tips.

German tips have stood up very well, and their contact springs are (IMO) the best out there. I use LP screws because they're higher quality.

[erooMynohtnA]

Except that you can buy a bag of O-rings for about the same as a bag of screws.

I don't see the utility of paying $40 for a tip that let's you avoid carrying around a little baggy of replacement things if you have to carry around a little baggy of different replacement things.

The draw to go screwless is for ease of maintenance, not cost. I don't care if the O-rings are free. I don't want them.

[chinbeard]

Many people seem to agree that FWFs are the best for epee. However, I believe that Madonna and James Bond prefer Leon Paul tips (though I'm not sure whether or not they're GT).