Tip Types: Features and Benefits

[telkanuru]

I'm pretty sure Mr. Bond's tip is self-lubricating...

[erooMynohtnA]

Mr. Moore, you are made of awesome. That post once again proves it.

So... If I'm dropping coin on a serious blade, I certainly think an extra $10.00 or more on a good tip/ wire/ wiring is worth it to me. I also remember sitting on a gym floor in college, between rounds, feverishly replacing (loosing) screws with sweaty, shaking hands praying that I wouldn't be called to strip before I was done...

I can, thank goodness, afford more than two weps atm, but still...

Thoughts on screw-less tips?

As referenced in my previous post, I think screwless tips are stupid. The whole point is to save you from dealing with screws, but they have their own sets of issues they bring along that negates any convenience they've provided. So basically you're buying a point that's more expensive and not as good for no reason.

I can go into greater detail (but in a less structured format) about some of the tips I'm most familiar with.


LP foil tips: I think LP has the best foil barrels on the market, hands down. GT or regular, they're tanks. I've never had a problem with a barrel. They also have awesome screws. They're much larger than german ones, and they're machined really well.

LP screws will need to be replaced in foil tips. The base of the tip wears into them, and they're eventually going to show it (6 months, a year). However, screws are cheap and easy to replace.

LP's foil wires aren't soldered to their base in the cup. That's not a huge problem, because if you're handy enough to do a good job rewiring you can probably solder them yourself, or you can just learn to be gentle with them. The insulation is also pretty bad, but again, by being gentle you can get around that.

I think there are two things that let the LP tip down. The first is springs that don't hold weight (but they're told me they're coming out with some new sexy springs, so maybe that issue is going away). The second is the machining. It seems to me that LP's point design philosophy is better machining through design. They use high tech materials and elegant design, to try to balance out imprecision production. They're actually very successful to a large extent, and I'm not saying that they do a bad job with precise machining, just their travel could be a little smoother. I think that it would be an incredible tip that used German machining with LP design. It would rule the world.

One last thing to note is that LP's regular and GT points are completely interchangeable, which is nice.


German foil tips: The Germans do things sort of the opposite of LP. They have great wires and great springs, but their barrels suck as does their capacity for innovation.

While you won't have to worry about futzing with a German point in the middle of a tournament to get it to pass weight, you may have to throw out the whole thing because someone smashed your barrel (not to mention the countless smashed screws you're going to have to get out somehow).

It's not like Uhlmann didn't know about that barrel and screw smashing problem forever. They just didn't seem to care. They released the V2A, which was more expensive and largely ineffective. Scews still got smashed and the barrel was still susceptible to dents--albeit less so.

However, they have some butter-smooth travel.


German Next Gen: When Uhlmann stuck it to Rolser-Fechtsport (the German company that used to make Uhlmann's stuff) and moved their stuff to China, Fechtsport decided to make their own distribution arm, FWF. It seems like whoever is in charge over there has a few more ideas than the head of Uhlmann did.

They fixed both problems the Uhlmann thin walled tips have by thickening the barrel (by basically ripping off LP). Now the screws sit flush with the barrels instead of poking out, and the barrels themselves are significantly stronger.

These are now as close as anyone has gotten to the perfect foil tip, except: The barrel can be too thick for some older test weights (and is technically illegal, I believe), and from what I've seen they just don't have the super smoothness that I remember the Uhlmann tips having. That might just be me though.

Two other things to note are that the insides are interchangeable, but the screws are not. Also, these are slightly heavier, and I've heard other people complain that the tips throw off their point control. I think that's bull****, personally.


French: Sport7 or not, these are garbage. Don't buy them. Imagine the German lack of design ingenuity without the German attention to machining. Now you have a tip of mediocre design and mediocre quality. Now imagine that tip being three times as bad so that the design is actually stupid and the machining is actually bad, and that's a French tip.

One thing that really bothers me (other than the simple fact that they suck) is that you have to line up the holes of the tip's collar to get the screws to go in. In a German or LP system, the orientation of the tip doesn't matter, so it's relatively easy, but not with a French. It's a pain.


I don't think there are any other foil points ubiquitous enough to warrant discussion. There are others, but you're not going to see them everywhere like the Big Three (four if you count the FWF nextgen differently).

As I see it the title of best foil point was traded off like this:

Pre 2000, Standard German
~ 2002, V2A German
~ 2004, LP GT
~ 2007, FWF Nextgen

I would also say that's the reverse order of quality now with the best being FWF, 2nd LP GT, 3rd V2A, and 4th the standard German. LP has been cooking up some new stuff like a titanium nitride coating, redone springs, and an anti-debounce design. If any of those make their travel as smooth as a German I would say they'd have the nod for best foil tips 2009. The battle continues to be innovation vs precision. Time will tell.


I'm not really an expert on epee tips, but there are a few things I can mention.

LP foil screws and epee screws are the same. That can be very enticing if you're going to be working on epees and foils. However, LP screws will also for German and French epee tips, but you have to keep using LP screws, because they rethread the hole.

LP epee wires make me cry. I can ruin wire after wire. However, that's not a huge problem, because you can generally switch epee points and wires. I know you can use a German wire in an LP point, because I've done it.

[Eejit]

Man I was just considering posting a thread asking about how to avoid goddamn smashed barrels on my German points. I have been reduced to one weapon after TWO TOURNAMENTS because my barrels are crimped. This of course means two rewires, but oh wait, I'm out of barrels because I KEEP HAVING TO REPLACE THEM. Augh, rage.

Protip, which I will follow: Buy a reamer. Find your "dream barrel" and stick with it and then contact the manufacturer to get a barrel reamer. You stick it in the barrel and turn it a few times and it returns the barrel to its original specs without having to rewire. It's a pain in the ass and every time you do it you actually weaken the barrels, but it's much better than replacing them. I had a friend whose reamer I was able to borrow regularly, but she is gone now so I will be getting one of my own soon for those newfangled FWF points.

[SJCFU#2]

Man I was just considering posting a thread asking about how to avoid goddamn smashed barrels on my German points. I have been reduced to one weapon after TWO TOURNAMENTS because my barrels are crimped. This of course means two rewires, but oh wait, I'm out of barrels because I KEEP HAVING TO REPLACE THEM. Augh, rage.

Protip, which I will follow: Buy a reamer. Find your "dream barrel" and stick with it and then contact the manufacturer to get a barrel reamer. You stick it in the barrel and turn it a few times and it returns the barrel to its original specs without having to rewire. It's a pain in the ass and every time you do it you actually weaken the barrels, but it's much better than replacing them. I had a friend whose reamer I was able to borrow regularly, but she is gone now so I will be getting one of my own soon for those newfangled FWF points.

If you use the FWF NextGen points (the ones with a thicker barrel wall) than you shouldn't need to use a reamer quite so often.

[Purple Fencer]

Protip, which I will follow: Buy a reamer. Find your "dream barrel" and stick with it and then contact the manufacturer to get a barrel reamer. You stick it in the barrel and turn it a few times and it returns the barrel to its original specs without having to rewire. It's a pain in the ass and every time you do it you actually weaken the barrels, but it's much better than replacing them. I had a friend whose reamer I was able to borrow regularly, but she is gone now so I will be getting one of my own soon for those newfangled FWF points.

Keep in mind that the only reamer I've seen is for German foil barrels...never seen onefor Frenchies...and with the NexGen point, you probably won't need it...I've yet to see one dented to the point where it jammed.

If you DO get a reamer, tho, grind a pair of flats at the top so you can throw a wrench on it...worksa lot better than trying to grab a round end.

[telkanuru]

heh heh reamer heh

[Barry Paul]

I cannot argue with EROOMYNOTHNA posting.

We are working on all the negative points you mention regarding our Leon Paul points.

If you email me at Leon Paul I will send you some of the latest designs (if Alex has not done already) New silver plated springs. New G.T points with new coating, insulation between the barrel and base so the point cannot short out due to the longer hit time.

With regard to the wires, the problem is up to now we don't think we had a problem, when we wire our blades and once they are glued they tend to stay glued until the blade breaks. I will get Ben to film our expert wiring a foil blade. We haven't gone down the route of coating all the wire with lacquer as it is such a fuss to clean it off at the other end. One thing I have found out was American Armourers are recommended to backward bend the blade with the wire fixed at the tang, When the blade is now bent in the correct direction the wire is un-necessarily over stressed. The wire must be stretched passed the plastic limit and in the case of our wires risk pulling the wire out. (this is really not necessary with our wires)
We believe in friction contacts because that's what the rest of the communication industry rely on, soldering is so eighties. Soldering can introduce more problems with dry joints as our friction fit, some thing which is nor seen when the blade is wired but occurs months later when an intermittent fault which no one can find means the blade needs re-wiring.
I have a reluctance to change our system because it can have unforeseen consequences. For example in the summer at a Pentathlete Championships there were some air hits from epees supplied by Allstar. The Allstar expert put it down to bad copies, however subsequently it transpired that some one at Allstar decided to reduce the number of times the wire shorted to the thread in the epee blade tip when wiring by sliding the two wires into a short piece of tubing just as it leaves the plastic block. Seems like a good idea, however the plastic tube prevents the glue from soaking into the wires at this point and fixing them permanently in position. Subsequently in use the wire can some times rub together and eventually short causing random valid hits.

If we cannot educate our customers perhaps we need to make some different wires for Armourers.

[telkanuru]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but as I remember, only PBT solders their wires, at least for epee?

As for the wiring process, in many cases, especially with Vniti epees, the slight backwards bend is very beneficial when it comes to keeping the blade wired.

[erooMynohtnA]

Thank you, Barry. Alex has already contacted me.

For your foil wires, I don't think there's any fault that can't be overcome by just being gentle, but I have a great deal of trouble with your epee wires.

It is true that your wiring jobs hold the entire life of the blade. I've never seen LP's equal for that. I would very much like to see how you do both epees and foils in house.

[Barry Paul]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but as I remember, only PBT solders their wires, at least for epee?

As for the wiring process, in many cases, especially with Vniti epees, the slight backwards bend is very beneficial when it comes to keeping the blade wired.

Not sure but I think Allstar and FWF wires are soldered.

In the case of viniti its not the bending but not cleaning the surface of the blade,it has a very slippery surface which has caused us problems in the past.

Will try and get a film of our experts wiring blades, might already be on our site some were.

[Barry Paul]

For pictorial for re-wiring epee see http://www.leonpaul.com/fencing_supp...moury_epee.htm

Tried to see if we have some thing simllar USA site but it is being rather long to load on my computer.

[telkanuru]

It might be for others, but not for me. My blades are clean. It tends to be that Vnitis can take really wacky bends when compared to other blades, and that what pops the wire.

[Barry Paul]

The L.P. V blades can take equal amounts of wacky bends without the wires popping out. Could be the surface finish of the blade or the adhesive used.

[Purple Fencer]

The L.P. V blades can take equal amounts of wacky bends without the wires popping out. Could be the surface finish of the blade or the adhesive used.

That brings up something I was told once about Vnitis...that the heat generated by grinding a wire out/cleaning the groove might bring up oils from deeper in the steel, which would affect the bonding of the glue...true??

How did those TN foil tips work out, btw?

[Barry Paul]

That brings up something I was told once about Vnitis...that the heat generated by grinding a wire out/cleaning the groove might bring up oils from deeper in the steel, which would affect the bonding of the glue...true??

How did those TN foil tips work out, btw?

If there is oil deeper in the steel we are in trouble. The maraging steel is cold rolled and annealed several times. This can leave a very hard skin oxide which is very tough and difficult to remove. This could be leaving a residue as it is ground of, but if you get down to clean steel and the surface is cleaned it should be no different to any other maraging blade.

T.N. tips work in progress samples being tested.

[Tomas N]

Hi Barry,

The problem I have had with your wires is that when I unwind and straighten them, unless I am very careful, it is easy for the insulation to start to move around a bit. The way other wires are insulated, it seems much more difficult (impossible really) to accidently get a short in the wire. I did order some LP foil wires from Craig though recently, and the insulation job seems to be different. Have you switched to a different wrapping system?

Perhaps if you put up a video of wiring blades, you can include your preferred method of straightening.

Tomas

[Barry Paul]

several year ago our wire manufacture disappeared. We did have some substandard wires which had to be rewound. We now (last year ) have a new supplier with a consistent double wound rayon covering.

Video to follow, Basically un-wind the wire and let it hang down. With a piece of cloth hold the wire between the thumb and first finger gently pull the foil wire, but pull it over the finger so it is being bent about 90 degrees in a soft arch over the finger. This puts a constant bend in the wire of large radius and takes out any small kinks.

Video will follow but it might have to be in the new year.

[magic_moose]

I have this problem with the epee wires too. By the time I get them straight and fed through the barrel, I have significant gaps in the cloth wrap. Along with not having the lacquer coat on the wire, the cloth wrap seems to be much more mobile than the wrap on the German wires.

[magic_moose]

several year ago our wire manufacture disappeared. We did have some substandard wires which had to be rewound. We now (last year ) have a new supplier with a consistent double wound rayon covering.

Perhaps I had some of these wires. I am pretty sure the wires I last used were about a year old.

[Craig]

I did order some LP foil wires from Craig though recently, and the insulation job seems to be different. Have you switched to a different wrapping system?

These are LP Foil wires that I have made up for our use. They were designed by Twisterfencing (Gary Spruill) and make it a lot easier to get the StM foil blades wired since there is no chance of a snag pulling the insulation off the wire now.

Craig