Why so little innovation?

[ejemyr]

As many, I’m a returnee to the sport of fencing, having been off piste for 25 years.

And already when I fenced competitively back in the 80’s, the basic weapons design was the same as in the 50’s. Now, 2008, I find that virtually all components of a weapon are still the same. Hence, the same problems. Fitting a new wire on an epee and nicking the wire where passing the guard – redo the whole thing. Failing to set the point socket correctly – redo the whole thing. Etc, etc.

Actually, how hard could it be to construct a system where you could replace the tip without changing the entire wire, a blade with a ‘tunnel’ instead of a groove, a guard with integrated socket and a channel up to the cord socket, as well as a grip system that don’t break the wire if coming loose (this exists, I know).

My question to the panel of experts present here is really; what is the main reason for the very low pace of innovation in fencing? Small market? Backward compatibility demands? Rigid rules? Other?

Best regards,

[Kettch]

how hard could it be to construct a system where you could replace the tip without changing the entire wire

Very easy with a bit of ingenuity. You can do it yourself.

a blade with a ‘tunnel’ instead of a groove

There are SO many reasons why this would not work. Plus the extreme difficulty of manufacture.

guard with integrated socket

Have been around for a long time.

My question to the panel of experts present here is really; what is the main reason for the very low pace of innovation in fencing? Small market? Backward compatibility demands? Rigid rules? Other?

VERY rigid rules (most innovations are mercilessly crushed).
Also, most fencing equipment manufacturers are small companies and cannot devote much time or money to research and development.

[Rapier_wit]

I've actually been wondering a similar thing, but in the realm of the uniforms. Other than the obvious innovation of good stretch material, I find uniforms be uncomfortable for the most part (not to mention unfashionable. Let's face it, fencing is about the practicality and not strutting your stuff down the piste. But hey, a girl can dream, right?). Then again, preferences range from person to person. i.e. can they think of some different way to hold down the jacket and attach the reel without the crotch strap? Despite adjustability, coupled with my ridiculously long torso, it's a pain in the well....you know.

Or gloves! No matter how small the size is, although the padding is great for keeping my hand from hurting when getting whacked, I can never get a good grip on my sword. The fabric's too big for my toothpick fingers.

But I'm with you ejemyr. It's weird when my mom's foils are no different than what we're using today.

At least there's been some innovation in shoes!

[Patrician]

There are SO many reasons why this would not work. Plus the extreme difficulty of manufacture.

Name one?

Why would it be so hard to have a tiny pipe inside the blade?
Pros with a pipe,
- Easy replaceable/mounting, just pull the wire through and attach it to the tip.
- Protected wire.
- No need for glue.

I highly doubt that it would be "extremely difficult to manufacture".

[Nolano]

Cons of a pipe:

INCREDIBLE rigidity and inflexibility. A pipe is much stiffer than the equivalent solid piece, but after bending a certain amount, they don't bend back, they just buckle and stay that way.

The rules say very clearly that a blade (at least an epee blade) can be manufactured one of two ways.
Stamped from a piece of sheet metal, IE the LP blades
Or forged/pressed/rolled from a steel cylindrical rod.

I'm a welder/fabricator and I've done blacksmithing as a hobby... I sure don't see an easy way to get a pipe out of either of those.

[SJCFU#2]

Name one?

Why would it be so hard to have a tiny pipe inside the blade?
Pros with a pipe,
- Easy replaceable/mounting, just pull the wire through and attach it to the tip.
- Protected wire.
- No need for glue.

I highly doubt that it would be "extremely difficult to manufacture".

A couple of thoughts that come to mind -

• How would you propose to make such a blade - IIRC most pipes these days are rolled and welded - I'm not certain how small of a inner diameter you can consistently using such a process (although I suppose you might try an extrusion).
• How would a pipe section respond to the sort of repeated bending that a fencing blade it subjected to? Most structural failures I've seen in pipes have involved one side buckling under compression.
• Have you ever had problems feeding wire through a 15 cm long piece of spaghetti insulation? Now imagine doing that with a blade that is 90 cm long.
• Once you get the wire down through the blade it still has to come out somewhere. That means that you have to put a hole in there somewhere.

Actually a hollow blade was proposed several decades ago (probably before the OP even started fencing the first time around). It was rejected by the FIE. There have also been proposals for carbon fiber blades however IIRC in addition to problems maintaining a conductive coating on the exterior the fencers who have tried them didn't like the way they felt.

[noodle]

why so little innovation? simple -- cost and the rulebook.

[Foiled in Seattle]

it's a pain in the well.

You actually have a well? I've never heard it referred to that way, but then I've never been through child-birth. I can see why you'd need an extra-long crotch strap.

[parrythis]

- Myopic perceptions of change
- Fear of stepping outside the comfort zone
- Difficult, time-consuming process to get something truly new approved

Browse the Armory section on f.net. It never ceases to amaze me how, when someone suggests something innovative, others come out of the woodwork and twist the rulebook into a pretzel if necessary to prove that they can't do that.

I recall someone telling me that the "tube" concept was actually created once. I don't recall why it didn't make it into the main-stream.

[noodle]

- Myopic perceptions of change
- Fear of stepping outside the comfort zone
- Difficult, time-consuming process to get something truly new approved

Browse the Armory section on f.net. It never ceases to amaze me how, when someone suggests something innovative, others come out of the woodwork and twist the rulebook into a pretzel if necessary to prove that they can't do that.

I recall someone telling me that the "tube" concept was actually created once. I don't recall why it didn't make it into the main-stream.

its not about being negative or proving it can't happen. the fact is that the rulebook and people in charge are heavily resistant to change. zip tips are a great product, but were made illegal in a blanket statement.

innovation in the technology isn't encouraged, its stifled. it should be embraced.

[Purple Fencer]

The tubular blade for foil was invented in the 50s by an American. it was an extruded item. The inventor made the mistake of patenting it, so the FIE ruled it illegal to protect the Euro manufacturers (I THINK I'm remembering the story right)

Cost is a HUGE factor...molds for plastic injection cost a LOT of money and the price for the parts is low...takes a lot of time to earn that money back. It took Leon Paul over 10 YEARS to make back their R&D costs on their original bayonet connector.

This is why you often see other companies making either knockoffs of an existing part like a Uhlmann body cord (with almost NO money being spent on solving the problems of the existing design) or incremental improvements that may make ONE aspect easier, but not solve a bigger problem (Favero body cords, specifically the 3 pin end. Good: The pins snap into place and STAY there while you put the case back together. Bad: You still have the same issue of the cable breaking where it comes out of the case)

Those that are truly innovative are either a company with enough of their own resources to do so locally (Leon Paul's the leader there) or a small guy like me who has good ideas and bounces them off the US SEMI rep (gotta love the fact that Dan only lives an hour from me!), but lacks the resources to properly develop them. My gloves are one thing...that was simplealtering an existing design. My body cords are another. They're good -- combining the best elements of cords out there and tossing the crap -- but I just don't have the money to make them.

[Patrician]

I find it sad that everyone slams the rulebook in someone who tries to develop the game. Especially when it's just a technical change, it's not like the whole game changes. And Id say that it's BS that Uhlmann for example couldn't make a "tubular blade" because it's time consuming. Uhlmann, LP, Allstar should realize that they would make a lot of money and gain (steal) a lot of costumers from other vendors if they'd pulled off a stunt like this. Alex, there's a lot of money in it for you!

I'm an optimist!

[Purple Fencer]

I find it sad that everyone slams the rulebook in someone who tries to develop the game. Especially when it's just a technical change, it's not like the who game changes.

Tell it to the FIE....they're the ones who make stuff illegal for no real good reason. Example: Dos Santos doesn't like the screwless tips, so he unilaterally made them illegal...no reason of unfair advantage, but just because he didn't like the idea.

Hopefully he'll be voted out and someone with a brain will take his place. Sadly, Dan DeChaine doesn't want the SEMI chair post (a damn shame...he'd be excellent in it)

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Tell it to the FIE....they're the ones who make stuff illegal for no real good reason. Example: Dos Santos doesn't like the screwless tips, so he unilaterally made them illegal...no reason of unfair advantage, but just because he didn't like the idea.

Hopefully he'll be voted out and someone with a brain will take his place. Sadly, Dan DeChaine doesn't want the SEMI chair post (a damn shame...he'd be excellent in it)

Dos Santos or no DS: could not the US or EU anti-trust laws be used to force the FIE open, against their will?

Is anyone running against him? If so, who?

To Patrician and Eyemyr: Hej från Kristianstad!


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[oiuyt]

Is anyone running against him? If so, who?

http://www.fie.ch/download/letters/2...ndidatures.pdf

CANDIDATS A LA COMMISSION S.E.M.I.

nom, prénom, pays

présenté par

Genre

AZIZI Alimohammad, IRI IRI M
BIERKOWSKI Jacek, POL POL M
CERVANTES SALDAŇA Ma. de los Angeles, MEX MEX F
DECHAINE Daniel, USA USA M
DE CONINCK Eric, FRA FRA M
DIAS S. C. DOS SANTOS Jose Eduardo, POR POR M
DIAZ PEREIRA Jose Fernando, ESP ESP M
EBERL LOPEZ Maria Wilda, CHI CHI F
ELZEFTAWI Gamil, EGY EGY M
GESTSSON Gudjon Ingi, ISL ISL M
HARINISHI Atsushi, JPN JPN M
HUGGINS Janet, GBR GBR F
KALENDER Mustafa, TUR TUR M
MARTIN Richard, AUT AUT M
MIHAI Christian, ROU ROU M
MOREJON VIZCAINO José Miguel, CUB CUB M
NICOLAI Gianandrea, ITA ITA M
RIKHTMAN Semen, RUS RUS M
SHABANSKI Filip, BUL BUL M
WAUTERS Piet, BEL BEL M

edit: incumbents bolded.

Not running for re-election:
KARAMETE Mehmet - TUR
MAYER Gabriela - CAN
OH Won Suk - KOR

Note that at least 2 women must be elected, by FIE rule.

-B

[Rapier_wit]

I wonder if a little bit of racial (or country rather) prejudice has anything to do with it (ex. not taking up a new design merely because it was made outside the European Union).

Foiled in Seattle - that was little gross. My line was to just to get around an expletive of the bum, though it would be more humorous than actually saying 'ass.' But I guess not. *shruggs*

Hm, makes you wonder if anybody would just have the guts to go ahead and start using a personal design and stick it to the FIE. (albeit if there isn't actually any reg against it) Despite being an ancient sport, I had always viewed fencing as a skill that was ever evolving to suit the time period (hence the switch from visual to electric fencing, I would imagine). I seriously thought the FIE would've embraced innovative change from within the fencing community. But money and base rigidity seem to stifle it.

Is there anyone who could've voted against Dos Santos ruling? Or was his vote the only one that mattered?

[Allen Evans]

Dos Santos or no DS: could not the US or EU anti-trust laws be used to force the FIE open, against their will?

The FIE is an international governing body, not a commercial enterprise. Anti-trust laws usually don't come into play in this case.

I'm surprised at the statement. I'd expect a CERN AI to know this.

AE

[Alex_Paul]

Small market? Backward compatibility demands? Rigid rules?

Nail...


Head.


I don't think there is a conspiracy against innovation but it takes a HUGE amount of money to design develop and create something really new. For example a tubular blade may be a great idea but if it works it is only once you are done can you try to get it accepted by the FIE if it fails you have lost a lot of money.

Some of the other suggestions are things that have been tried but are much more difficult than they appear. For example "how hard could it be to construct a system where you could replace the tip without changing the entire wire" if you can explain a system that can take the kind of pounding that a tip does and remain functional then I am all ears and I promise that if it sounds plausible we will give it a go.

[Alex_Paul]

Name one?

Why would it be so hard to have a tiny pipe inside the blade?
Pros with a pipe,
- Easy replaceable/mounting, just pull the wire through and attach it to the tip.
- Protected wire.
- No need for glue.

I highly doubt that it would be "extremely difficult to manufacture".

How do you:

Stop the pipe kinking when it goes past its elastic limit
pull through the wire
connect the wire at the end (either end)
stop the wire rattling around
Forge the pipe with a consistent wall thickness at a sensible cost
change from pipe to something solid at the tang

etc... We have thought about it and trust me it is extremely difficult to manufacture!

In reality making it easier to rewire is a relatively small benefit which would be great if the unit cost of the blade was the same. Although I believe we could make a blade that was a tube and would get the FIE to accept it the cost would be somewhere between 2 and 5 times per blade with no extra longevity. Is it really still worth it to make re wires a bit easier?

[Purple Fencer]

How do you:

Stop the pipe kinking when it goes past its elastic limit
pull through the wire
connect the wire at the end (either end)
stop the wire rattling around
Forge the pipe with a consistent wall thickness at a sensible cost
change from pipe to something solid at the tang

etc... We have thought about it and trust me it is extremely difficult to manufacture!

In reality making it easier to rewire is a relatively small benefit which would be great if the unit cost of the blade was the same. Although I believe we could make a blade that was a tube and would get the FIE to accept it the cost would be somewhere between 2 and 5 times per blade with no extra longevity. Is it really still worth it to make re wires a bit easier?

And don't forget the thousands of dollars it takes to have a blade FIE certified....those costs get passed on to the consumer.