One issue every one might wish to consider, F.I.E. fencing competitions cover less than 5% of world fencing activity, it is the individual countries fencing federations which can follow all or only some of the F.I.E. rules. On the whole c most countries follow all the F.I.E. equipment technical rules (apart from strength of clothing.)
Some of the rules seem strange but often have a historic reason which is not apparent to a new comer. It has nothing to do with European dominance.
That has nothing to do with it...if a companhy is charged several thousand bucks for testing and certification, there aren't that many who can swallow those costs...they have to get passed on.
What's your problem then?
There's nothing unusual about the fact it costs money to have kit made to a certain standard.
I find it sad that everyone slams the rulebook in someone who tries to develop the game. Especially when it's just a technical change, it's not like the whole game changes.
Like when people had ortho' grips mounted on the end of french grips? That's a small technical change. It obviously didn't have the potential of changing the whole game. I suppose we should blame those huge European cartels for lack of vision (or protectionism) and outlawing what was certainly an improvement to the basic design of a fencing weapon...
It is NOT easy to make such a long, small diameter hole inside a long, small cross-section piece of steel -- you can't use a drill. I suppose a laser is possible, IF your piece of steel is nice and straight.
I am guessing you've never seen small diameter steel tubing.
For an epee or fail blade (where there is a decreasing diameter/thickness), the easiest way to get the type of profile you need would probably be hammer forging. The machines necessary to do this cost millions, and as noted, why bother? It would be a pain to rewire. The current technology seems to work quite well
In all seriousness, i'm happy with the progress of fencing considering the size. I mean it SUCKS compared to things like the automotive racing, but that's the beauty of fencing: it's not that equipment intensive. If it were, i expect we see a lot more effort put into developing the weapons.
I seriously do get pissed of at the blade quality sometimes.
Just because i'm lazy, is there some reason we haven't done more materials analysis? NiTi has ELASTIC limits well within several deviations of flex normally seen in a foil. That means many many many cycles until failure. GREAT for fencing. Is NiTi too heavy? Hard to work?
Just because i'm lazy, is there some reason we haven't done more materials analysis? NiTi has ELASTIC limits well within several deviations of flex normally seen in a foil. That means many many many cycles until failure. GREAT for fencing. Is NiTi too heavy? Hard to work?
Rules state it must be steel, so even if you spend the money to test it and it's great, you'd still have the get the rules changed to allow it.
I don't know if there's anything exclusive to NiTi or Ti alloys that would make them impractical to produce.
There's nothing unusual about the fact it costs money to have kit made to a certain standard.
Please read the comments again, Gav....I'm not complaining...just pointing out that certifying an FIE blade adds a lot of consumer-end cost....the strength or weakness of the dollar vs the euro doesn't enter into it very much in the end. Sure, a non-FIE blade gets a price change when the exchange rate changes, but it's greater for the FIEs partially due to the additional cost of certification.
I am guessing you've never seen small diameter steel tubing.
For an epee or fail blade (where there is a decreasing diameter/thickness), the easiest way to get the type of profile you need would probably be hammer forging. The machines necessary to do this cost millions, and as noted, why bother? It would be a pain to rewire. The current technology seems to work quite well
Ah -- I was thinking in terms of either forging or stamping. Small diameter tubing is extruded, I thought, so it would fall outside the allowable methods of manufacturing. Maybe you mean to start with an extruded tube, and then hammer forge it into shape?
Please read the comments again, Gav....I'm not complaining...just pointing out that certifying an FIE blade adds a lot of consumer-end cost....the strength or weakness of the dollar vs the euro doesn't enter into it very much in the end. Sure, a non-FIE blade gets a price change when the exchange rate changes, but it's greater for the FIEs partially due to the additional cost of certification.
surely the cost of a couple of thousand dollars when you're producing thousands of blades means that per blade it's probably one of the lower costs?
surely the cost of a couple of thousand dollars when you're producing thousands of blades means that per blade it's probably one of the lower costs?
Are you figuring in import duties to the US as well? You should see hoe bad it is for complegted textiles.....one of the reasons FIE clothing is so expensive over here...on top of the cost of the material itself.
Are you figuring in import duties to the US as well? You should see hoe bad it is for complegted textiles.....one of the reasons FIE clothing is so expensive over here...on top of the cost of the material itself.
Now you're talking about something else that the FIE has no control over, which was the original criticism of your post.
Could the FIE somehow lower costs for testing? Probably. Would that mean any significant savings at the consumer level? Not really.
It might helpa little bit if there were more than 2 approved testing labs....both in Europe.
It's a European standard so I am not exactly surprised that the testing labs are on the European continent.
I work for a company that certifies to certain standards. From experience it can be difficult setting up the correct protocols outside of the area where they were drawn up.
It's a European standard so I am not exactly surprised that the testing labs are on the European continent.
I work for a company that certifies to certain standards. From experience it can be difficult setting up the correct protocols outside of the area where they were drawn up.
There are probably cost implications too.
There always will be.
But in reality, the testing REQUIRED isn't to Euro standards....it's to FIE standards. Euro standards are tougher, more in-depth, and just happen to cover all the FIE requirements....the makers DO get more testing bang for their buck if they send stuff to CRITT in France, for example.
But what would preclude a qualfied testing lab in the US from testing to FIE standards?? it's not like there are NO testing labs on this side of the Pond that could test punctrure resistance on fabric, masks, or lifespan on blades...
But what would preclude a qualfied testing lab in the US from testing to FIE standards?? it's not like there are NO testing labs on this side of the Pond that could test punctrure resistance on fabric, masks, or lifespan on blades...
Nothing.
Other than the setting up the correct protocols.
Licensing costs.
Training costs.
Set up costs.
Certification (not necessarily the same as l licensing)
I was once told that the FIE mark itself means nowt (other than a revenue stream for the FIE) but it's sundry costs of the other standards you need to certify against that are tough and expensive.
As an example we had to set up a group in spain recently. Now the UK is actually within the European Union but one particular purchaser will not buy from a supplier unless that company meets a certain UK standard. There's possibly an equivalent European certification body and standard that could do the job just more easily ... but no they want the UK standard enforced. So we need to go to Spain. Find someone we can talk to. Get them trained up. Get them certified. Agree the contract costs and royalties. Agree various protocols. Wade through a mountain of paperwork. Send a manager over there to observe that company in action... and we still aren't finished (well until the manager gets back and hands in his forms).
What is this for you ask?
A sticker.
And we can be audited twice a year as a result of all that work (even though we'd be unlucky if that were to happen).
I am not certain that your own bodies over the in the US will be interested in the trickle of income that fencing would provide them. I know I wouldn't (I wasn't even convinced when I learned about the example I gave and that's a real world example with real world money involved).
My mention of costs earlier wsa actually an ironic statement.
Originally Posted by Purple Fencer 
