Chooseing a Lame/Foil

[Orako]

So I just participated in my first electric tournament and my parents got a chance to see fencing for the first time. They loved it and are offering to get me electrical set. I was wonder what some good choices of Lames. I have been leaning towards the Absolute Washable that is 99. This is what I used at the tourny (Had to borrow due to no club lames fitting my size). I was wondering if anyone had some insight as to other lames. I loved this one as it was a very fine material and comfortable.

Also, I was was wondering on a grip, I use a Vis Large for practice but I was wondering if the Negrini pistols are much different. I used a zivkovic ZII grip and LOVED it, however I do not think I can order it with the lame I want from Absolute fencing.

I didn't do to bad either XD

[Morale Officer]

You can order the Ziv grips from their web site as well as can order complete weapons from their site. Grips I believe are $17 a piece and the complete weapons vary. As for lame's, I just ordered the AF Women's F/Z, but haven't gotten to use it yet as I had to ship it back for a larger size. Beyond that, it's been years since I've ordered a lame (my last one was from Santelli), so I'm not one to answer that very well.

[CvilleFencer]

I actually don't recommend the Absolute lightweights. Depending on the level of fencing and how you care for them, they don't seem to hold up a long time. I am a huge fan of LP lames and their ultralight is the best on the market IMHO and what I recommend as the top range to my fencers. The LP INOX is very long lasting as well and a bit more in the same price range as the Absolute.

I have not dealt with the newer Aboslute Signature Lame lines at all yet, but the basic Absolute lame is a great choice for a "budget" Lame. Negrini is also a very good choice. I would stay away from Uhlmann/Allstar as there are better lames for about the same money available.

[Orako]

I should have mentioned that I have only been fencing since September. So, I don't really have 140 to spend on a jacket alone, then buy body cords and an electric foil. I would say my budget is around 180-210 (With out tax and shipping).

Edit: I also should mention that I need a 52-54 inch lame. As I am bigger than most fencers.

[SJCFU#2]

I should have mentioned that I have only been fencing since September. So, I don't really have 140 to spend on a jacket alone, then buy body cords and an electric foil. I would say my budget is around 180-210 (With out tax and shipping).

Bear in mind that you will need TWO foils and body cords in order to compete (hopefully this won't blow your budget).

As far as lames are concerned, I agree with CvilleFencer - stay away from the Absolute washable ultralight lame. They may be nice when they are new but unfortunately they tend to die quickly (see brtech's comments in this thread). If budget is a limiting factor then you might consider something like the Absolute's standard F/Z lame. It won't last as long as a good stainless steel lame nor be as comfortable as a lightweight, however with a bit of care it should last you for at least a year or two (maybe more depending on how you use and abuse it).

That way when it comes time to replace it you (hopefully) won't also need to buy two foils and two body cords so you might be able to afford a better lame.

[Orako]

Well, I would only be using electric with the clubs all night tues and part of the night thurs. The only competition I plan on entering for some time would be local hosted by the club and we just swap weapons. I wouldn't need two weapons as we just used club ones this past weekend for the tourny I mentioned previously. I planned on getting only one foil, 2 cords and lame. If I did go to an outside tourney I can borrow the clubs or someone in the clubs foil with out problems.

[Kettch]

You dont really need two body cords, especially considering how expensive they are.

They are a lot more reliable than foils, and easy to test and repair.

[SJCFU#2]

You dont really need two body cords, especially considering how expensive they are.

They are a lot more reliable than foils, and easy to test and repair.

You most certainly do need two body cords if you are going to compete - otherwise you will be in violation of T.86.

And while I would agree that two body cords are usually sufficient (provided they are properly maintained) I generally wouldn't consider a body cord to be expensive (unless we are talking about Negrinnis, which are about as close to indestructible as a body cord can get and priced accordingly). My experience has been that you can usually buy two decent body cords for less than the price of one decent foil.

[Empty Wallet]

Had the kids at the club the other night. Two opponents had bodywires that failed in regular bouting -- one wire was brand new.

At a comp with one wire they would have been in trouble.

In the big picture, they are cheap.

[Morale Officer]

I should have mentioned that I have only been fencing since September. So, I don't really have 140 to spend on a jacket alone, then buy body cords and an electric foil. I would say my budget is around 180-210 (With out tax and shipping).

Edit: I also should mention that I need a 52-54 inch lame. As I am bigger than most fencers.

You sound like me. I just sent back my size 50 lame because it fit too tight and ended up going with a 54 (hasn't come in yet) because of how tight the 50 fit (yes, I ordered larger than my jacket). Keep in mind, you will pay extra for a larger size.
I'm slowly replacing my gear (since some of it got lost during moves and such), so I end up buying little bits each paycheck to save on some $$ (last paycheck was the lame and two ziv grips). Most of what I buy is from either AF or BG (as I don't have the money for LP stuff). I know for myself, I'm not looking forward to buying elec sabre gear as with as broad as my shoulders are and as long as my torso is, I'll probably need a 56, so I definitely feel your pain in the price department (since spending $300 isn't in my budget). If only LP made gear in my size and price range! Guess I can dream. lol

[Kettch]

You most certainly do need two body cords if you are going to compete - otherwise you will be in violation of T.86.

The only competition I plan on entering for some time would be local hosted by the club

Therefore T.86 not enforced. And if it is, you can bet that they are requiring two foils as well.

In addition:

Better to have your own weapons and know their "feel" than to borrow an unknown weapon. Bodywires have no "feel" so no problem with borrowing them.

People are much more willing to lend you a bodywire for a competition than a weapon.

Good quality (ie leon paul) bodywires do not fail unexpectedly. There are always heaps of warning signs. Just check it on the day before the comp. And if a bodywire does show signs of failing, it is sooo eeeasy to fix.

The electric circuit in a foil fails quite easily (by far the most likely weapon to have electrical problems) and in a lot of cases are more complicated to fix than bodywires. The failures are often sudden, unexpected, and difficult to diagnose. It's a good idea to have your own spare even just for training.

Had the kids at the club the other night. Two opponents had bodywires that failed in regular bouting -- one wire was brand new.

Are you trying to say that bodywires are less reliable than foils? Come on...
The kids probably hadn't checked the screws.

you can usually buy two decent body cords for less than the price of one decent foil.

I agree. But for a club fencer there is simply no need to have two bodywires. Put the money towards a second foil, it's much more important than a second bodywire.

[Empty Wallet]

OP indicates someone who has competed in their first outside competition and wishes to do more. So, responses must consider a fencer trying to be equipped for competitions. Plenty of threads have discussed what is required and what is desirable.

No, I am not saying bodywires are less reliable than foils. I am saying they are cheaper and usually last a lot longer. But, I am saying they fail. Wires do break, pins break off, things become disconnected. The time and facilities to repair in the middle of a bout are often absent at an event.

The coach who helped the kids out knows a little about these things. Having been an NCAA champion and having competed at many WC events she is aware of the electrics of foils. And I will repeat, one of the bodywires was fresh out of its wrappings, never used before, so warning signs of failure.

Where my kids fence competitions, at least 2 bodywires are required and must be presented on the strip.

I just looked up the f.net prices. A bodywire for about $18, a basic electric foil from $42. To get started, this is not a huge outlay, especially calling on the newly enthusiastic parents.

[SJCFU#2]

Therefore T.86 not enforced. And if it is, you can bet that they are requiring two foils as well.

Just because it's local event doesn't mean that the rule won't be enforced - it just sometimes makes it easier to borrow a cord from someone else. And while some referees may be more lenient than others regarding how close the spares have to be to the strip (often this is a function of available space), just about every referee I know will issue a yellow card if they catch you without a spare weapon or body cord (and the opponent will usually remind them should they forget).

Good quality (ie leon paul) bodywires do not fail unexpectedly. There are always heaps of warning signs. Just check it on the day before the comp. And if a bodywire does show signs of failing, it is sooo eeeasy to fix.

And if everyone actually maintained their body cords and checked them in advance then the armorers wouldn't need to include them in equipment checks (which would make a big difference in how fast those lines would move). The only reason body cords are checked at all is because weeding out the bad ones in advance significantly reduces the number of problems that arise out on the strip, thereby reducing delays once things do finally get started. Just because something appears to work perfectly well out on the strip doesn't mean that it will pass inspection.

BTW - I've also failed a fair number of LP body cords over the years - sometimes repairs require more than just backing off and retightening the set screws.

Put the money towards a second foil, it's much more important than a second bodywire.

I agree with the importance of a second foil (in fact I wouldn't dream of entering a tournament without at least three working weapons). I'm merely saying that if you intend to compete then you will be required to bring a second body cord as well - even if it's just a local competition.

[flyingfencer]

I agree with CVilleFencer. The LP Lames are very good. I've used all sorts of cheap lames, and you get what you pay for.

Also, pick up some decent bodycords. If you use a bayonet, Leon Paul is good. For two prong, AllStar or Uhlmann are the best.

For non FIE weapons, the STM blades aren't bad, but you're going to want to upgrade to an FIE blade at some point. I have three Vniti's that I rotate through, and they are now over a year and a half old without breaking. In two years I've broken one Vniti. In the previous two years before I purchased my Vniti's, I went through twenty three non FIE blades.

I volunteered recently for an NAC at the armorer's testing table. It was interesting to see all of the different bodycords, masks, and lames that were presented. I'll just say that the Absolute light weight lames were some of the lames that had the most issues—this after I recently purchased one as a backup lame, ah well...

For bodycords, every AllStar and Uhlmann that I checked passed without any problems. They were very well made. The LP Bayonets were also good.

[telkanuru]

You dont really need two body cords, especially considering how expensive they are.

$15 each?

[brtech]

For bodycords, every AllStar and Uhlmann that I checked passed without any problems. They were very well made. The LP Bayonets were also good.

The Uhlmann/Allstar are very good cords. They have two well known faults, one of which I am surpsed you didn't see at a NAC (actually, if you were there for more than a couple hours of a serious line work, I'm surprised you didn't see both of them). One is that the clip comes apart, you will see lots of these cords missing the clip. That isn't enough to fail the cord, but it's a problem, and we point it out to the fencer. The other problem is that the wire breaks just where it exits the shell of the connector. You see this as an open connection, or sometimes an intermittent. When you take apart the connector, you often don't see a problem, but if you yank on the pin, the wire will come off with a couple inches of copper hanging from the pin.

The LP cords (the real thing, not the copies) are excellent cords. We regularly test and pass cords that are 15-20 years old. The have a well known problem usually called "Leon Paul Disease". This is where you measure the resistance of the B or C at 3-5 ohms. The fix for this is easy: loosen the screws on the pins 1/2 turn and tighten down hard. Fencers with LP cords need to learn to tighten the screws before every major tournament. This small amount of maintenance will reward you with excellent service, well worth the price.

The best cords these days are Negrini. They are expensive. They rarely break. There is an annoying failure these cords have where the lug that is used to connect the wire to the 3 prong connector breaks. The only fix is to replace the lug. For foil, they now come with Favero 2 prong connectors, which are very nice connectors, but the clip breaks.

[flyingfencer]

The Uhlmann/Allstar are very good cords. They have two well known faults, one of which I am surpsed you didn't see at a NAC (actually, if you were there for more than a couple hours of a serious line work, I'm surprised you didn't see both of them). One is that the clip comes apart, you will see lots of these cords missing the clip. That isn't enough to fail the cord, but it's a problem, and we point it out to the fencer. The other problem is that the wire breaks just where it exits the shell of the connector. You see this as an open connection, or sometimes an intermittent. When you take apart the connector, you often don't see a problem, but if you yank on the pin, the wire will come off with a couple inches of copper hanging from the pin.

The LP cords (the real thing, not the copies) are excellent cords. We regularly test and pass cords that are 15-20 years old. The have a well known problem usually called "Leon Paul Disease". This is where you measure the resistance of the B or C at 3-5 ohms. The fix for this is easy: loosen the screws on the pins 1/2 turn and tighten down hard. Fencers with LP cords need to learn to tighten the screws before every major tournament. This small amount of maintenance will reward you with excellent service, well worth the price.

The best cords these days are Negrini. They are expensive. They rarely break. There is an annoying failure these cords have where the lug that is used to connect the wire to the 3 prong connector breaks. The only fix is to replace the lug. For foil, they now come with Favero 2 prong connectors, which are very nice connectors, but the clip breaks.

Yes, I was there for just a couple of hours on two separate days. Actually, I had exactly that clip problem with a couple of body cords which wasn't enough to fail, but we had them fix it. I didn't see the problem with the wire breakage just beyond the shell. I did see on some of the cheaper sabre and foil body cords a bad connection on the grounding wire. Some of them I could just pull loose from the alligator clip with an easy tug.

[wahrman]

I've been using an Aboslute Signature sabre lame since summer nationals. I very rarely fence sabre, it has been worn 10 - 15 times and is already turning quite green.

I do take good care of it but I do sweat a lot.

They promise that it will pass NAC conductivity for a year but I have a hard time believing that. Especially if it were used regularly.

[SabreReedfrost]

the lightweight machine washable lame is great- i have one for sabre. it does actually hold up well in the washing machine. however, i think that the best thing for you to do, since i'm assuming that you won't be participating in many tournaments, is that you just get some average stuff. nothing too fancy. later, when you compete in many tournaments, you should get a separate set of stuff, like a lame, foil, maybe a cord or two. (those are fairly easy to fix, though)