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KShan5[PrFC] · 09-16-2002, 11:31 PM

I know there have been threads on this, but I am lazy.

I was at the New York Atheletic Club over the weekend for a tournament, and while there I was basically disturbed. It was the final match and fencer A was winning 8-1 at the 8 touch break. Fencer B, directly after recieving the last touch whips off his mask and sits down and almost starts crying. His coach comes over to him, and they have a chat. From then on out, the coach was basically telling Fencer B what to do during every action. Sure enough Fencer B, came back to something around 8-10. Although Fencer B lost the bout, but this still disturbed me. Fencer A and B are within 8 spots in the mens sabre ranking in the US. Now I have a question, and give me some leeway because I am extremly new to fencing, but

should this really happen. Should a fencer in the top 30 in the US rely that much on his coach?

sabreur · 09-17-2002, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KShan5[PrFC]

should this really happen. Should a fencer in the top 30 in the US rely that much on his coach?

A. If it is within the rules, and it is, and
B. If it helps him stay in the top 30...

Yes.

IMNSHO.

MR

achilleus · 09-17-2002, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KShan5[PrFC]

should this really happen. Should a fencer in the top 30 in the US rely that much on his coach?

Fencers have been receiving coaching for years. It's only a new thought here in the US.

There are a couple of ways at looking at whether someone should be that way. One way, is to say that everyone should be able to think and act for themselves.

Another way is that this fencer may not be able to think for himself effectively ever. Some people need a coach to direct and focus their energies. Nothing wrong with this fencer realizing the weakness, and having the coach work on the problem.

Another way to look at is coaching is normal in almost all other sports. Football coaches being the most hands on, with basketball coaches coming in second. Why should fencing be different? (Yes, I know everyone's going to write how fencing is so different from every other sport, and that's a valid opinion in many areas. But in terms of how our athletes conduct themselves, and whether coaching is neccessary, it's kinda up in the air.)

***Craig*** · 09-17-2002, 01:07 PM

My coaches in the past have always taken the tack of getting me to where I could analyze the actions and fend for myself. This had to work for me because my coaches had other fencers at competitions also and no one of us could monopolize the coach's time. He would help out whoever needed the most help, and then stay with you if you were the only one still fencing.

That said, there are times when having your coach at the side of the strip giving you some actions helps a great deal. There are times when they can see actions and developments that you are missing.

If you have the resource, then use it, but I wouldn't want someone to become totally dependent on the coach being there, because there are times when they won't!

Cheers,
Craig

Puppet Master · 09-17-2002, 03:11 PM

I dont mean to dog you achilleus but, Football and basketball are team sports, they need somone to organize them. fencing is mostly an individual sport, like tennis and golf. But yes it is up in the air, theres not really a right or wrong here.

I think its inately odd to have someone else be your "brain". However, sometimes, if you can understand the coach, you know what your opponent is trying to do. I don't mind it as long as the coach isn't overly loud and distracting, which i think is cardable, right?

oiuyt · 09-17-2002, 03:33 PM

I know the incident that Kevin is referring to. Just one note. It wasn't actually fencer B's coach, it was a clubmate of fencer B (himself a very good fencer, ranked above both fencer A and fencer B and not actively fencing that day). The fact that he could take instruction from someone other than his regular coach (who wasn't at the competition) and still get results helps argue that a coach with multiple duties/students is less of a handicap than otherwise. There's still the issue of what do you do when there's no one available, but it's hard to argue that it has significantly hurt this particular fencer's performance so far.

-B :)

DJ Apostrophe · 09-17-2002, 04:02 PM

individual sports, particularly combative ones, are subject to coaching from the side as well... have you ever watched a high school or college wrestling match? the coaches at these events usually sit on the sides yelling instruction to their athlete... its not just a fencing thing... its an athletic thing...

achilleus · 09-17-2002, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Puppet Master
I dont mean to dog you achilleus but, Football and basketball are team sports, they need somone to organize them. fencing is mostly an individual sport, like tennis and golf. But yes it is up in the air, theres not really a right or wrong here.

No worries.

Yes football and basketball are team sports as opposed to fencing. The reason why I mentioned them is because the coaches are very vocal and it is very obvious to everyone that they are there.

That said, DJ pointed out that combative sports receive coaching (just think boxing), but so do tennis and golf. In golf, you have a caddy who gives advice on which club to use and often on approaches.

Although prohibited in tennis, coaching exists like it does in fencing. In fact, Brad Gilbert (agassi's former coach), was quoted as saying 'If I am in the front row, and happen to yell something and Andre happens to hear, that's not coaching, that's just me cheering, and him hearing.'

sombrero · 10-08-2002, 12:52 AM

Heh heh,

I think that coaching on the piste is perfectly fine as long as he is not distracting to the opponent fencer (like yelling or something). It actually gives a fencer alot of confidence that his coach tells him how to go into a match and what to do or look out for.

On the other end of the spectrun of course, i have also come across those who simply yell out word for word details like "move forward two steps" or "lunge now" and the fencer reacts exactly! Talk about predictable.

Perhaps it would be best if coaches restricted their advice to asking for calm or just telling fencers to watch out for certain things like "this guy is slow on the retreat" or "he's got a fast lunge, run like hell" before the bout or during breaks and not actually coach during fencing time.

Inquartata · 10-08-2002, 02:17 AM

You know, what I see much more often is the coach yelling instructions and advice, and the fencer not doing anything he's being told to do.

Maybe the fencer is stubborn, or isn't able to make quick adjustments to his game in the middle of a bout. Or maybe he's like me, and his degree of focus is such that it effectively blocks out extraneous noise ( sometimes I barely hear the box or referee, much less anyone else ). It appears to me that these cases far outnumber the ones where the coaching seems to have any noticeable effect...

epeemike81 · 10-08-2002, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Inquartata
You know, what I see much more often is the coach yelling instructions and advice, and the fencer not doing anything he's being told to do.

Maybe the fencer is stubborn, or isn't able to make quick adjustments to his game in the middle of a bout. Or maybe he's like me, and his degree of focus is such that it effectively blocks out extraneous noise ( sometimes I barely hear the box or referee, much less anyone else ). It appears to me that these cases far outnumber the ones where the coaching seems to have any noticeable effect...

At least in my case, I know its not the latter. I don't hear much extraneous noise, but one of the things that I kind of lock in on and hear are my teammates and coach. I won't hear a word of what the other team is saying (unless I am trying to) but I will hear ANYTHING one of my teammates says on the side of the strip.

-m

Catlady · 10-10-2002, 02:58 AM

Also, remember there's a difference between knowing what to do--whether because you've figured it out yourself, or because someone else told you-- and actually being able to do it successfully. Perhaps this isn't an issue for better fencers, but in my case I could have someone feeding instructions into my ear on every action and it wouldn't necessarily help me fence better.

epeefencer74 · 10-10-2002, 04:36 AM

The coaches at my club have developed hand signals for very general things like, "Press the attack", "pull distance", "take the blade", "You stupid idiot what do you think you are doing" etc. Usually we stand at the opposite end of the piste where our fencer can see us. We have learnt that shouting specific instructions not only isn't distracts our fencer but gives it away to the opponent as well. The hand signals only come up after the halt, never while they are actually fencing. It has been useful on many occasions, even if its just to let our fencer know we are there supporting him.

Scott Allen Abf · 10-10-2002, 02:22 PM

I'm suprised no one has talked about this aspect of it:

In USFA rules it is _illegal_ to coach a fencer who is fencing. Regardless of how common the practice may be, by the letter of the law it is not legal. Here is why:

On the www.usfencing.org web site the latest Rules document is the 1999 Edition. _It specifically states that this is the newest version. _I downloaded it to look things up. _The site mentions the new rules, effective August 1, 2002 but references no other documents or locations and so the sum total of rules are in the Rules document plus this set of new rules. _Any other source, including word-of-mouth, is invalid and should be ignored. _

t.82 contains a paragraph:
"Everybody taking part or present at a fencing competition must remain orderly and must not disturb the smooth running of the competition. _During bouts no one is allowed to go near the strips, to give advice to the fencers, to criticize the Referee or the judges, to insult them or attempt to influence them in any way. _Even the team captain must remain in the space assigned to him and he or she may only intervene in the situations and
manner provided for in Article t.90 of the Rules. _The Referee must stop immediately any activity which disturbs the smooth runing of the bout which he or she is refereeing (cf t.96).

(Note it does not say "Everybody taking part or present, except for a fencers coach").

Article t.90 refers only to team events, and (in any event) does not cover giving advice to fencers in a bout. _The team captain may only talk to the Referee, President of the Bout Committee, etc, to discuss technical matters.

(Which I take to mean, getting clarification on calls, etcetera). _

So it pretty clearly states that no one can give advice to the fencers, no matter what anyone tells you to the contrary. _Not only can they not give advice, but the rules specifically state that it is the responsibility of the referee to ensure that it does not happen. _

Article 118 calls for a first infringement of disrupting a bout to be a
warning that is noted on the score sheet. _The second infringement is a Black Card (expulsion from the competition venue). _

Personally, when I am fencing somebody I am there to fence one person and not two. I get pretty frustrated when I have outsmarted a fencer who gets mid-game instructions from his coach (who has more experience than I) which alters their behavior. I've lost bouts in which I was winning prior to coach interferance/advice.

So I'm not putting up with it anymore. I'm going to keep a photocopy of the relevant rule sections in my bag and whenever this occurs again, I'm going to show them both to the offending coach and refereee and then ask them if we are following USFA rules or not.

achilleus · 10-10-2002, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scott Allen Abf
I'm suprised no one has talked about this aspect of it:

In USFA rules it is _illegal_ to coach a fencer who is fencing. Regardless of how common the practice may be, by the letter of the law it is not legal. Here is why:

On the www.usfencing.org web site the latest Rules document is the 1999 Edition. _It specifically states that this is the newest version. _I downloaded it to look things up. _The site mentions the new rules, effective August 1, 2002 but references no other documents or locations and so the sum total of rules are in the Rules document plus this set of new rules. _Any other source, including word-of-mouth, is invalid and should be ignored. _

t.82 contains a paragraph:
"Everybody taking part or present at a fencing competition must remain orderly and must not disturb the smooth running of the competition. _During bouts no one is allowed to go near the strips, to give advice to the fencers, to criticize the Referee or the judges, to insult them or attempt to influence them in any way. _Even the team captain must remain in the space assigned to him and he or she may only intervene in the situations and
manner provided for in Article t.90 of the Rules. _The Referee must stop immediately any activity which disturbs the smooth runing of the bout which he or she is refereeing (cf t.96).

(Note it does not say "Everybody taking part or present, except for a fencers coach").

Article t.90 refers only to team events, and (in any event) does not cover giving advice to fencers in a bout. _The team captain may only talk to the Referee, President of the Bout Committee, etc, to discuss technical matters.

(Which I take to mean, getting clarification on calls, etcetera). _

So it pretty clearly states that no one can give advice to the fencers, no matter what anyone tells you to the contrary. _Not only can they not give advice, but the rules specifically state that it is the responsibility of the referee to ensure that it does not happen. _

Article 118 calls for a first infringement of disrupting a bout to be a
warning that is noted on the score sheet. _The second infringement is a Black Card (expulsion from the competition venue). _

Personally, when I am fencing somebody I am there to fence one person and not two. I get pretty frustrated when I have outsmarted a fencer who gets mid-game instructions from his coach (who has more experience than I) which alters their behavior. I've lost bouts in which I was winning prior to coach interferance/advice.

So I'm not putting up with it anymore. I'm going to keep a photocopy of the relevant rule sections in my bag and whenever this occurs again, I'm going to show them both to the offending coach and refereee and then ask them if we are following USFA rules or not.

Heh.

You are in for a rude awakening.

neevel · 10-10-2002, 03:48 PM

From the October, 2000 USFA Board of Directors meeting minutes:

The Board approved a motion to repeal the words, "to give advice to the fencers" from the third paragraph of section t.82 of the from USFA Rule Book.

This has the effect of permitting the giving of advice during a bout if it is done in a manner that does not disrupt the bout. Mr. Goering stated that the FOC would draft a replacement rule or policy to be presented to the Executive Committee for its November 10, 2000, meeting.

-Dave

geronimojox · 10-10-2002, 05:16 PM

i do not agree at all with coaching on the piste. if fencer b is in the top 30 then why does he need some one to hold his hand. the referee should have carded the coach and told him to shut up.

coaching during a bout this excludes your 1 minute break of course is to my mind just plain cheating.

you fence most of the time with your head and if he is not creative enough to do this in his own he doesnt deserve to be in the top 30.

Boo Boo · 10-10-2002, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geronimojox
you fence most of the time with your head and if he is not creative enough to do this in his own he doesnt deserve to be in the top 30.

Does this also stand for people who fence at A-grades? The Italians - and a few other nationalities - don't know the meaning of being quiet supporters ;-) Does this mean that they shouldn't be fencing internationally?

Boo

geronimojox · 10-10-2002, 06:32 PM

supporting your team mate yes i agree with you but not telling him what to do against an oponent that is totally different

achilleus · 10-10-2002, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geronimojox
i do not agree at all with coaching on the piste. if fencer b is in the top 30 then why does he need some one to hold his hand. the referee should have carded the coach and told him to shut up.

coaching during a bout this excludes your 1 minute break of course is to my mind just plain cheating.

you fence most of the time with your head and if he is not creative enough to do this in his own he doesnt deserve to be in the top 30.

Well, he is in the top 30, and he hasn't been blackcarded for cheating, or buying bouts, so I think you need to revise your definition of a top 30 fencer.

After all, being top 30 in the nation means one thing. That the person has earned points at one or more competitions, and earned enouch points to place behind 29 other people. Nothing more is implied.

Coaching is legal in the US, and the rule is ignored at FIE comps. The Italians, the Germans, and the French all have pretty vocal coaches.