Coaching on the Strip

[Boo Boo]

The supporters (i.e. other fencers and coaches) also tell them what to do during the fight - not just support them. That's the way it goes...

Boo

[Scott Allen Abf]

Originally posted by neevel
From the October, 2000 USFA Board of Directors meeting minutes:

The Board approved a motion to repeal the words, "to give advice to the fencers" from the third paragraph of section t.82 of the from USFA Rule Book.

This has the effect of permitting the giving of advice during a bout if it is done in a manner that does not disrupt the bout. Mr. Goering stated that the FOC would draft a replacement rule or policy to be presented to the Executive Committee for its November 10, 2000, meeting.


-Dave

Was the replacement rule or policy drafted and presented? Voted on? Approved? It certainly was not disseminated as a rule change. As far as I can tell, even if they are currently in the processes of changing the rule, it has not been officially changed. Either that, or the newest set of rules are not made public (which begs the question of how useful they are).

This is just a note in meeting minutes about the intention of changing a rule; not an annoucement of a rule change itself.

Perhaps clearer minds prevailed in between the time this was discussed and today and stopped this sort of foolishness from taking place.

[haggis]

New rules on piste-side coaching.

1. According to FIE rules, it is illegal.
2. Almost every serious fencing nation ignores this rule.
3. If you coach, you are there to help your fencer.
4. If everyone else ignores the rule, so should you.
5. Don't observe the rule or you let your fencer down.
6. Er, that's it.......

[darius]

When it comes to the FIE, the no-coaching rule is on the books, just casuallly ignored by everybody.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong here on any of these counts -- the USFA actually voted to actually change the rule. This is something of a first, because usually they just appropriate changes handed down by the FIE.

I tend to agree; if a rule is bad or unenforced, better to change or eliminate it than have some enforced rules and some unenforced. It also makes sense by enforcing consistency between how things happen in the US and how they happen internationally -- and it still gives the referee plenty of leeway if the coach is being belligerent or disruptive.

There is a potential problem that if the FIE ever tightened enforcement of the rule, we would be stuck having to change it back.

Like it or not, coaching is here and it's here to stay. If your game is strong and adaptable enough, it will adapt to any changes made by your opponent. If not -- well, that's why we train, right?

darius

[achilleus]

Originally posted by Scott Allen Abf
Was the replacement rule or policy drafted and presented? Voted on? Approved?

Yes it was voted on, approved and drafted.

Originally posted by Scott Allen Abf
It certainly was not disseminated as a rule change.

It was on the website, in newsletters, and in American Fencing during the year that the rule was changed. In fact in the most current American Fencing, the effect of the rule change is discussed by Jeff Bukantz.

If that isn't dissemination, I don't know what is.

And yeah, it is illegal according to FIE rules, but I have never seen it enforced. Ever.

[fencer-person]

I happen to know intimately the situation at the NYAC. The fencer, ranked in the top 30, is a young fencer and still learning how to deal with adverse situations. Such as being down 8-1.

His clubmate gave him some ideas to use in his bout and encouraged him while he was fencing. Telling him to stick to his plan and game against his opponent.

Coaching on the strip is a part of fencing. Every sport has coaching. If you go to a World Cup without a coach you are going to have a hard time. That is why the 8-point rule was instituted to give coaches a chance to talk with their fencers.

If coaching helps this young fencer to improve and grow as a fencer both natioally and internationally then who is anyone to say that he shouldn't be coached?

[RC]

Our club follows FIE rules. Our coach does not permit "coaching" between "Allez" and "Halte". He has yellow and black carded coaches for doing so during a match that he was directing.

Given that your coach isn't always available and the advice of others frequently unreliable, it's best to learn how to stand on your own two feet.

[fencer-person]

The advice was given during the 1 minute break which was created to allow coaches to coach their fencers. Its true, a fencer should be able to stand on their own two feet and in the end it is the fencer on the strip who still has to execute no matter what is said.

However, coaching is an important part of fencing, especially on the international level. Sometimes a coach or clubmate can see things that you are doing or that your opponent is doing that you are not aware of.

I don't understand why coaching is considered to be some great "evil" by your club. Check out any other country and how they train their top fencers from Pozniakov on down and you will see that even they had coaching on the strip and at many times still do.

And of course, no one could be coaching you between the referee saying fence and halt. While you are fencing and moving it might only serve as a distraction. This is not what I am talking about, nor what the fencers clubmate did at the tournament in question.

[electricepeeist]

We get some coaching by coaches, sometimes teammates, at competitions. Sometimes a coach will stay at the other end of the strip and watch, occasionally making hand gestures to if there is something we should be doing but aren't, or nodding if we are doing something right. At large competitions, there are usually two or three coaches, and many more people competing, so they can only stop by for a little bit. Sometimes they may gesture, or shout a key phrase, such as the name of a drill which has the same strategy as what we SHOULD be doing, but usually they wait until the breaks to tell us a strategy to use against our opponent's strengths or weaknesses, or what we are doing wrong and should change.

[magma]

during breaks is the most appropriate time for coaching, but what is the difference between cheering and coaching? cheering is something we do to encourage one another, a polite applause once in a while for a nice action, but for friends and opponents to stand on the sidelines and yell directions only wrecks the entire bout for everyone. that's why the top chess masters ask for quiet during their matches. it's courtous. but what is courtesy? It comes from many sources, but mainly young people need to learn it and learn it from coaches.

[Darion McNair]

Personally I love when my opponent gets coached. He is then worrying about his actions rather than mine. In addition, I hear the coaching as well, meaning I can execute the appropriate counter for the action.

There is a point at which I draw the line, however. At a recent local tournament I attended, my director was my opponent's coach. It was a pool bout and I had tied it up 3-3. When I scored the tying point, I heard the director giving my opponent advice in another language. Needless to say, I was livid. So you see, coaching on the piste can easily get out of hand.


-Darion