Epee Rewiring Supplies/Advice

[chinbeard]

That "magic time" in every fencer's life has finally come for me, and now I need to figure out how to rewire my favorite blade.

I've read FDN posts and found webpages on how to do it, but they seem to be written for people who DON'T consistently botch weekend projects. Therefore, I ask: What are the most common mistakes, and how do I avoid them?

I've been using the standard "French" tip from Absolute, but I've noticed that after a while, the travel starts to get pretty rough. I think that I'll use this opportunity to try out either the FWF, or the LP GT. Which is better? Does the LP's Teflon coating wear off after a while, leaving me at square 1? If they are the same, then which is heavier?

Are point-setters all the same, or do they need to be of the same manufacture as the point?

Is the "spaghetti" insulation included with blade wires, or do I need to purchase that separately?

...and now for something completely different: The holidays are coming up, and I'm thinking about asking for a new epee blade. Which is the heaviest epee blade available?

[erooMynohtnA]

I've heard the LP GT teflon wears off eventually, but you can just replace the tip rather than the whole point. I think the FWF probably has an edge in quality, and the weight is going to be really close between them.

I'm not sure about the point setters. I want to say they're the same because parts are interchangeable, but I don't know. If worse comes to worse you can just use a pen or screwdriver or something.

The spaghetti tubing is not included, but you can reuse your old stuff if it's not too short.

The heaviest epee blade is probably a Vniti.

[Fechter1]

Some Blade building caveats:

Tighten the barrel BEFORE setting the point, making sure the wire can travel through the barrel 'freely'. This cuts down on the twisting breaks that you see often right below the leads cup.

Make sure you thread the wire through the bracket (to which the body cord clip is attached) and lay it in place for the wire notch in the grip. Squeezing the wires while tightening the grip is a baaaaad thing.

German wires have an extra layer of insulation (copperish sheen), which needs to be sanded off (sandpaper, may take a while) to expose the silvery sheen underneath.


In terms of tip travel...
That crunchiness you feel comes from two sources: grit and dirt in the barrel, and damage to the smooth surfacec inside the barrel and on the tip 'stem'. Cleaning the tip frequently can easily double the lifespan of a nice smooth tip.
I would definitely recommend the FWF German tips. The machining is done with nice precise tolerances, meaning the initial travel is smoother, and there is less damage over time to the surfaces.

[piste off]

Go with the FWF points and Absolute wires (they Chinese ones, double insulated). Vniti blades are heavy and last forever.

Wiring Vnitis can be difficult for some people, and even some vendors. Most people will say to clean the blade and rough the grove, but a much better option is to use Pliobond, which is probably the best glue for wiring if you know what you are doing (NO MORE POPS!). It takes awhile to master, and stinks like crazy but it is the best by far (Santelli used to use this).

With the above combination, and using Loctite blue on the barrel you'll break the blade before you have to rewire.

R-

[SJCFU#2]

Unfortunately while most epee components are more or less interchangeable, not all epee wires are the same and neither are all point setters.

Most epee wires set the contacts into a plastic block with a flat top however Allstar and Uhlmann epee wires have a raised plastic rim around the contacts (sometime referred to as the "volcano" - a legacy of the FIE epee points of the early 90's which no longer serves any purpose and may even cause problems). These wires tend to work best with a specially shaped point setter that is designed to press against the top of this "volcano". Looking at pictures on FWF's web site it appears that they may still be making wires with the volcano (which isn't that surprising, given that they used to supply parts for Allstar and Uhlmann), however epee wires from different manufacturers tend to be reasonably compatible with those of other manufacturers (unlike with foil wires) so you might consider simply using Absolute epee wires, which are double insulated, similar to German wires, but don't have the volcano around the contacts. A French style point setter tends to work well with these wires.

edit: as Fechter1 suggested, only feed a little bit of wire through the barrel prior to screwing it down on the end of the blade - that way if you mess up you'll only loose a little bit of wire that you would probably end up cutting off as excess once you hook everything up.

[Purple Fencer]

A word on point setting....a specialty one isn't needed....here's why:

The heads of the wires sometimes don't sit entirely level...and if they're off, thr spring won't short across them reliably, no matter how long it is.

Instead, I do this...use a narrow flat punch as a point setter (one that will easily fit into the volcano on a German wire...on a French you can actually use the foil side of a mandrell) and use THAT to push the cup into place(making sure you also pull the the wire out the bottom at the same time so it doesn't bunch up underneath the cup). Once it's all the way down, use a hammer or even a test weight and GENTLY tap the top of the punch three or four times. This will not only seat the cup better, it'll level the contacts.

[Mergs]

For a handy reference (that starts off with the assumption that you don't have years of handyman experience) see sig line below.

[brtech]

Common mistakes when learning to wire epee:
1. Failure to tighten the barrel. This is a feel thing, you tighten it (with a wrench, preferably the right size fixed wrench, or, if you don't have the right size, a C-wrench, set on the flats). You tighten it tight, but not so tight that you crack the barrel. I don't recommend thread locker, but you can use the non-permanent kind if you want. If you do use it, put one small drop on the blade thread, and then screw on the barrel.

2. Scraping the insulation while pulling the wires through the barrel. Hold the blade so the groove is up, and very carefully pull the wire through the barrel, being careful not to nick the insulation.

3. Failure to set the point. Use the right point setting tool (covered in other poster's notes), and make sure the point is set at the right depth. An argument in favor of a commercial point setting tool is that it is marked with the proper depth. There is a line that should be even with the top of the barrel.

4. Not enough tension on the wires. Pull the wire taught, and wrap aroun the tang. Use a good bending chain and put a good 6" of bend in the blade.

5. Not getting the wires down flat on the channel. Once you have a good bend, the wire should have a good deal of tension. You should be able to get the wire sitting flat in the bottom of the groove. Use a tool, like a wooden stick, or even a tip screwdriver.

6. Too much glue. Use CA. For epee you can use a gel type ("Zap-a-gap") although most of us use thin fast CA (Zap pink). Start at the tip end. If using gel type, it doesn't run: apply a thin bead on the wire. If using fast thin CA, start at the tip end, with the tang down. Drop one drop of glue close to, but not on the point where the wire exits the barrel. Let it run down towards the tang. You can see the wire darken as the glue is absorbed in the insulation. When it stops running, drop another drop at that spot and let it run down. Do that until it gets a bit more than half way. Wait 30 seconds, then turn the blade over. Start at the top of the wide part of the channel in the forte, leaving unglued the last 1/2" or so. Drop one drop of glue, let it run down, and repeat until you get past the halfway point. Let it set 2 minutes and then you can reassemble. Too much glue results in either glue going back into the barrel, or dribbling down onto the tang (and thus glueing the wire wrapped around the tang).

[chinbeard]

By the way, how much heavier are Vnitis than non-FIE StMs? Is it really noticeable?

[Craig]

Originally Posted by chinbeard

By the way, how much heavier are Vnitis than non-FIE StMs? Is it really noticeable?

Can't tell you how much they differ, but the difference is noticable.

Craig

[chinbeard]

Am I correct in assuming that a heavier blade would give me an advantage when beating? Or should I go for stiffness?

[chinbeard]

OK, I officially just botched my first rewire. I got a no-mix 1 minute epoxy in a syringe, and I guess 1 minute isn't as long as I thought it was. It was ugly, but I thought it might work.

Then I tested it, and the circuit was permanently complete.

When I took the barrel off, the contacts weren't even, and it looks like maybe I had pulled the wire too taught and dragged the contacts toward the tang.

How tight should the wire be?

[SJCFU#2]

Originally Posted by chinbeard

How tight should the wire be?

Taught enough to keep the wires lying flat in the groove while you glue them down (which usually doesn't take much). Depending on how deep the groove is you may also have to gently push the wires down into the bottom of the groove while gluing those last few inches before the tang - Leon Paul sells a special jig for this however I usually just use an old screwdriver or the cut-off end of a Q-tip.

You may also want to try a different glue.

[chinbeard]

Yeah, I think since I'll have to wait for a new wire, I might as well order some of that Fletch-Tite stuff.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by chinbeard

OK, I officially just botched my first rewire. I got a no-mix 1 minute epoxy in a syringe, and I guess 1 minute isn't as long as I thought it was. It was ugly, but I thought it might work.

Then I tested it, and the circuit was permanently complete.

When I took the barrel off, the contacts weren't even, and it looks like maybe I had pulled the wire too taught and dragged the contacts toward the tang.

How tight should the wire be?

Welcome to the learning experience!! We ALL started out that way!

KIwonder if the epoxy itself is conductive....if it IS and is soacked through the wire insulation, that would explain the permanent circuit closure....is it stillclosed even of teh tip is removed.

I think it was Elmer's glue thayt was conductive....trying to remember Dan D's story from Armorers College...

When pulling the wire tight...pull until it STARTS to snug up, then GENTLY pull just a little more, then secure it to the tang....if you pull too hard yo may do what you did, or it may come out of the crimp entirely (more of a problem with French than German wires). Part of teh art to armory is figuring out how tight to pull....something that really can't be taught on line...you have to be hands on a feel it.

[Hyena]

Originally Posted by Fechter1

Tighten the barrel BEFORE setting the point, making sure the wire can travel through the barrel 'freely'. This cuts down on the twisting breaks that you see often right below the leads cup.

Yes, yes, YES. I forgot to do this the first time I rewired my epee, and now the wire's pretty much hanging on by a thread. So, soon, I'll have to rewire it again...

Also, I find that a wooden clay-sculpting tool is good for smoothing the wire in while you bend it. That way you don't get the glue all over your fingers like I did the first time around!

As for the tightness of the wire.... I'd bend the blade as far as it can comfortably go and glue down the wire gradually-- about 6 inches at a time.

[brtech]

If you have a permanent connection, it's unlikely to be too much tension on the wires. It's possible, I suppose, to pull it such that the insulation pulled down and the contacts touch, but I've never seen that happen. Usually, too much tension results in an open, not a short.

First, disassemble the weapon, so you have just the blade, with no tip. Check the connection. If you have a short between the wires, then you do have a wire problem, take it apart and start again. Make sure the groove is shiny clean before you glue again.

If you don't have a connect between the wires, it's not the wire job. First put the tip in and check again. If you see a connection, the contact spring is too long, replace and/or adjust it. Make sure you DO get a connect with the tip depressed. If you don't, most likely the contact spring is too short, replace and/or adjust it. You can do the whole shim adjustment now if you want.

It's possible to get conductive epoxy, but most epoxy is not conductive. Elmers is water based, that's why it has conductivity issues. Fletch-tite is okay, and some armorers swear by it. Try CA. It works and its easy to get. Zap-A-Gap is pretty good for epee, but the regular thin fast stuff works well also. You need to top glue Fletch-tite: you put some glue in the channel, then put the wire in, then top glue the wire. Some armorers don't do that. I think they are wrong, but hey, every armorer is different.

If you still have no connect with the tip in (and not depressed), mount the blade to the handle, guard and socket, but don't wire the socket. Check again. If you have a connection, it's most likely poor spaghetti application, take it apart and make sure the spaghetti is in good shape, and goes through the guard and in to the wide part of the tang groove. It should extend PAST the guard a bit.

When you can get the guard, socket and handle assembled with no connect, wire the socket up and try again.

[SJCFU#2]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Iwonder if the epoxy itself is conductive....if it IS and is soacked through the wire insulation, that would explain the permanent circuit closure....is it stillclosed even of teh tip is removed.

I think it was Elmer's glue thayt was conductive....trying to remember Dan D's story from Armorers College...

While epoxy's usually aren't conductive I have heard similar things from Joe Byrnes about water-based glues (I think he used Weld Bond). Apparently the water can soak through the insulation enough to cause a short. Usually it will be fine if you leave it dry overnight however if it's humid enough the drying time can increase to the point where if you check it first thing in the morning there may still be enough water in there to create a short.

[chinbeard]

I thought about gluing it in sections as recommended, but it didn't seem that the epoxy was runny enough to get under the wire, so I did it at once.

What's CA? And where do I get this Zap stuff? I tried looking for it (as I recall seeing the brand places before I started looking for it), but it's not at the depot, mart, or even the lobby.

Yeah, it was a short in the wire along the blade somewhere (though the wiring job was so messy, I couldn't definitively tell where), but I think at least one of the shorts came from the contact points being pulled out of the plastic cup toward the hilt, where they were touching in the groove.

[Purple Fencer]

CA is short for "Cyanoacrylate" -- superglue.

I get mine (Pink labelled bottle from Bob Smith Industries...a but more rubbery than store bought CA) at hobby stores...go to one that deals with RC model toys and you'll probably find the stuff.

The problem with the store bought CA glues is they get brittle over time...and when the glue fractures, the wire pops....failure to clean the bloade out properly before even starting the wiring process will only accelerate a wire pop.