Arm/Leg Speed

[trafl926]

Any suggestions for increasing the speed of an extension and the speed of a lunge/fleche in epee/foil?

As for workouts outside of fencing: running and weight lifting primarily. Leg work is mostly in the form of squats.

[D'Art]

Slow it down to start with. Then make sure the technique is good. Then work on your timing of the actions. Then you'll find it'll flow better, and faster without you realising that's what's happened. There's also a few cheats you can do, which I've mentioned in loads of other posts, but can't be bothered going over again.

As for the cross-training exercises, they're not even close to my forte (unless you count carrying several beers at once as cross training) so i won't even make any suggestions for those.

[erooMynohtnA]

There are a lot of leg exercises you can do to improve leg power (and squats are good), but it's going to mostly come down to technique and timing rather than raw power as D'Art has indicated. Then, once you get past the technique of the action, not only do you need to work on the fleche itself, but also the setup.

With the extension, I have nothing for you except keeping your arm relaxed and being ready to shoot it out. No matter how fast your extension gets, it's only going to get a couple hundredths of a second faster than a child's. It's going to be your reaction time that's going to win that battle.

For both, I have a very (technically) simple drill. Do footwork with blades in contact, one person leading the footwork. For extensions, stay in extension range and extend quickly when they invite, then quickly go back to guard and continue (not jabbing though, and maintaining distance throughout). For fleches, stay at fleche range and fleche when they invite, then get back as quickly as possible. While the basic idea of the drill is simple, it can be incredibly difficult to execute and physically exhausting.

[trafl926]

the difference between jabbing and an extension being a jab comes from the shoulder?

[MdA]

Thousands of reps on a wall target....or fencing manikin

[telkanuru]

It's going to be your reaction time that's going to win that battle.

Not really. I mean, raw reaction time has little to do with fencing. Wasn't there some study that showed high level fencers have an average reaction time?

The key is having the ability to read what's going on and accurately predict what is going to happen, which isn't the same thing.

[Tomas N]

The trick to a successful extension is to extend quickly and maintain point control. I tell my novice students to think about shooting the point out rather than popping the elbow and shoulder. Having a fast but inaccurate extension is worthless.

Then, as MdA says, do thousands of extensions with a dummy. In lower-level epee, a good extension, some understanding of tempo, and a little bit of footwork can win you a lot of bouts.

Tomas

[RITFencing]

Having a really good extension is trickier than one might think*...

A linear extension comes from two rotational motions, one in the shoulder joint and one in the elbow; keeping the resulting hand motion smooth and linear requires that these be timed correctly.

I tell students to try to keep their forearm parallel with the floor, hand right in front of the elbow, and imagine they are sliding the forearm off of a table. I tell them to reach forward with the elbow and keep the same relationship between it and the hand.

I also tell them to engage the deltoid (shoulder muscle) as little as possible; it's there for support, but if it gets too involved, it will only pull the arm up and back. The major muscle groups, IMO, are the triceps for the elbow rotation and the latissimus dorsi for the shoulder rotation. I try to keep the actual shoulder muscle as loose as possible and use the upper back to affect the motion.

It's also important to note that the elbow joint only straightens; the arm does not bend further during the extension; this will cause the hand to come up near the shoulder and then forward, in a much more akward path that will probably end up making the action fail and is especially dangerous in foil and epee. To this end, I tell people to release the joint and once again just let the arm straighten as the elbow reaches forward.

It's also important to me to make sure that there is no rotation in the hand; this can really throw off the point. The wrist can be a culprit here, but lately I'm finding that the elbow is even more at fault. Pay attention to it as the arm extends; it should follow a very simple path forward and a bit up as the upper arm raises, but it should stay at the same rotational angle the entire way. If it rotates outward as it comes forward, it will cause a lot of problems.

In short, release the shoulder and elbow joints, reach forward with the elbow and ensure that it stays at the same rotation while keeping the hand in front of it. Keep going until the hand is as far from the shoulder as possible. There's some different viewpoints as to exactly where the arm should end; many people say it should be a little up and outside of the shoulder while the tip goes down and inside (this is for foil and sabre, obviously) for a good angle to hit and keep oneself safe while some others want it directly in front of the shoulder for maxiumum reach. There is also one very strong school of thought in sabre that never does a full extension to make sure the arm is always able to move to another action should this one fail. Of course, all of this is for a general purpose extension, see the footnote for a disclaimer.

* This is for a straight extension, not one with a shoulder flick, opposition hit or odd angulation; many of these rules can be broken for specific circumstances.

[RITFencing]

The trick to a successful extension is to extend quickly and maintain point control. I tell my novice students to think about shooting the point out rather than popping the elbow and shoulder. Having a fast but inaccurate extension is worthless.

Then, as MdA says, do thousands of extensions with a dummy. In lower-level epee, a good extension, some understanding of tempo, and a little bit of footwork can win you a lot of bouts.

Tomas

Some higher level epee, too; most high level bouts that I watch aren't hugely technically complex.

[RITFencing]

Not really. I mean, raw reaction time has little to do with fencing. Wasn't there some study that showed high level fencers have an average reaction time?

The key is having the ability to read what's going on and accurately predict what is going to happen, which isn't the same thing.

I'd mostly agree; I just phrase it a bit differently. I like to say that better fencers are able to see actions starting much earlier.

Its a slight change, but an important one to me.

[erooMynohtnA]

the difference between jabbing and an extension being a jab comes from the shoulder?

I can't tell you my definition of a jab or a touch, but I know it when I see it. You can certainly jab without bringing the shoulder into play.

Basically, the method of making a touch you keep your hand relaxed and in the same position vertically and sort of push through target in the motion of making a touch that almost ignores where the target is. In jabbing, you snap out to where the target is with a tight hand and immediately snap it back. Just because your hand is relaxed doesn't mean you're doing it right, but you're at least headed in the right direction.

Not really. I mean, raw reaction time has little to do with fencing. Wasn't there some study that showed high level fencers have an average reaction time?

The key is having the ability to read what's going on and accurately predict what is going to happen, which isn't the same thing.

Right, I'm not talking about how fast your brain can process information. By reaction time I mean the time between when the opening is given and when you execute the action. Anticipation is going to be the prevailing factor in how short that time is.

I'd mostly agree; I just phrase it a bit differently. I like to say that better fencers are able to see actions starting much earlier.

Its a slight change, but an important one to me.

But why are they able to see the action start earlier? It seems like you're saying intuition and Telk is saying analysis, but what is intuition other than unconscious analysis? I think Telk's statement is the the reason why they are able to do what you're saying.

[RITFencing]

But why are they able to see the action start earlier? It seems like you're saying intuition and Telk is saying analysis, but what is intuition other than unconscious analysis? I think Telk's statement is the the reason why they are able to do what you're saying.

For me, it's sometimes a good guess but more often the start of an actual commitment; like seeing a small forward movement of the tip that is the first part of a lunge. That lunge is going to come; it's not a guess when the opponent has actually committed to it. A better fencer will notice the start of the action, a beginner won't notice until the tip is already close to the target.

One of the hallmarks of some higher level lessons are very subtle cues like this, because if the fencer isn't able to see the start of an action against high level opponents, the rest of it will follow at a time when it is almost impossible to do anything.

[Applesauce and Foils]

Wow, what an enjoyable thread, guys! Some interesting points. Keep it up!
AF

[catwood1]

Wow, what an enjoyable thread, guys! Some interesting points. Keep it up!
AF

Ok, I have to laugh that right after this comment, there is dead silence.

So, here goes:

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[snarsdale]

the difference between jabbing and an extension being a jab comes from the shoulder?

Actually, I've never seen it written on these fora, but obviously the shoulder and elbow are both involved. Most peolple don't realize that the shoulder is actually multiple joints. For practical purposes, the two places that achieve the most movement are the glenohumeral joint - the ball and socket, mostly driven by the deltoid and rotator cuff, and the scapulothoracic movement of the shoulderblade gliding accross the chest wall. Achieving smooth effective scapulothoracic movement, I believe, is what separates a jab from an "extension".

[Hauptman]

the difference between jabbing and an extension being a jab comes from the shoulder?

To me, a jab is a touch that lands before the full extension of the arm.

I mean that a jab obviously involves some extension of the arm, so the difference to me is that you never quite get a full extension when jabbing.