Switch to foil from epee without a coach

[Kimmuriel]

I've been fencing epee for nearly 3 years. I think I am quite good at it in spite of the fact that I've taken individual fencing lessons from my coach only three times in my life (of course after the beginner and the intermediate team classes), and the last one was about two years ago (it's too expensive for me ). So all I know about fencing is basicly from free fencing. I've always interested in all of the three weapons, but I've forced to choose epee because it was the only weapon offered at my club. But I feel now's the time to try an other weapon. I won't stop fencing epee, I just want to try out something else. I choose to try foil not saber for some reasons. There are no sabreurs in my club, but long time ago there was a tiny community of foilists, but most of them left the club and those who stayed was switched to epee. I know some of them and there are a few former foilists among the newbies whose also forced to fence epee (because they cannot find other foilists among the clubmates). Unfortunately there isn't any foil (and saber) fencing coach at my club. But I really want to try foil fencing! So my crazy idea is that I'm trying to reunite the former foilists and ask them to teach me. Is it possible to learn foil fencing without a coach? What do you think? Should I give it a try or it would be better to stay away from DIY-like foil lessons given by clubmates 'cuz it would be too ineffective?

[catwood1]

Switching to foil from epee without a coach will be VERY hard. Especially, if you don't have a good understanding of right of way already. Its a difficult and esoteric concept to understand if you don't have a good coach to explain it.

If possible, find a foil coach. Even if its only for a couple of lessons, it will make it difficult to switch, instead of damn near impossible.

[gatsby]

I've did epee for years and came to hate it (But then again, I was never really a very patient person). I decided to turn to foil and found it to be a hell of alot more fun. If you're the type of epeeist who likes more exciting footwork and enjoys more blade action, foil will come easier. If you're a pommeling bounce and counterattacking epeeist, foil will be very hard to get used to. I've been fencing foil now for a little over a year with maybe 5 total foil lessons and am doing just fine.

[Kettch]

*cringe*

so you guys all just make things up as you go along? How good can you really be if you don't get regular lessons? As for going from epee (which you taught yourself) to foil, without a coach... not going to happen. Right of way, which is fundamental to foil, is abstract and cannot be explained in writing. The only way to understand it is to get lessons with a good coach, to fence under the supervision of good referees, and to watch good foil fencing on DVD.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but seriously, you cannot teach yourself to fence - it is just too abstract. Once you are a very good fencer already it is possible to coach yourself (although I still don't recomend it), and by very good I mean upwards of 5 years of regular lessons.

[Slacker]

I have to agree. Foil is a bit more technical than epee. There's that whole right of way thing, in fact, there are all kinds of rules that don't apply to epeeists. The target is smaller, the footwork is (should be) more lively, and it's way more fun. Find foilist friends and practice, watch DVDs, but by all means find someone who knows what they're doing! You will probably catch yourself counterattacking when you should have parry/riposted.

[catwood1]

Someone could POSSIBLY kinda sorta maybe teach them self foil by watching alot of it. It wouldn't be easy (or pretty) but it could be done.. *sorta*

Really... this is gonna be alot easier if you just take some lessons.

[oiuyt]

Every opponent is a teacher. Every encounter is a lesson.

Is it harder to learn to fence (well) without a coach? Absolutely.

Is it impossible? Not even close.

I was originally an epeeist. I then learned how to be effective at both foil and sabre without significant outside coaching.

How good can you really be if you don't get regular lessons?

While I definitely think that lessons with a good coach are highly beneficial to the development of a fencer, it is possible to get to be reasonably good without them. There are very few absolutes in fencing (or life) and there is rarely only one way to accomplish something.

-B

[catwood1]

I think the difference in how easy this transition would be between zero lessons, and 5 lessons would be HUGE. 5 lessons, difficult, but possible. 0 lessons, it is far far harder.

[Kettch]

long time ago there was a tiny community of foilists, but most of them left the club and those who stayed was switched to epee. <...> there isn't any foil (and saber) fencing coach at my club. But I really want to try foil fencing! So my crazy idea is that I'm trying to reunite the former foilists and ask them to teach me.

See the problem? No only does he have no coach, he dosen't even have experienced opponents or referees!

Having said that, I think you should give it shot and see where you end up. Go to competitions where there are good foilists. Observe carefully how the referee awards the touches. If you really want to compete successfully though, you will probably have to move.

[telkanuru]

Foil is a bit more technical than epee.

There are no words for how very, very wrong you are.

[rory]

You guys have missed a critical thing here - the OP's location.

The OP has been fencing epee for 3 years in Budapest; I guarantee you they're pretty decent at epee. The footwork, timing and distance will already be there.
And going from epee (at a decent level) to foil is easier than going from foil to epee.

Getting a group of foilists back together to train and give each other lessons isn't ideal, but it might work in that environment.

Kimmuriel - which club do you fence at? I used to fence at Honvéd.
Your best solution is maybe to head along to one of the more foil-oriented clubs (say MTK?) once a week or so - I'm sure they'd let you fence.

[Kettch]

And going from epee (at a decent level) to foil is easier than going from foil to epee.

Surely you jest...

Foil was originaly designed as a training weapon FOR EPEE. Foil teaches you the conventions which you should follow in epee. Epee teaches... not a lot that would help with foil.

[rory]

Surely you jest...

Foil was originaly designed as a training weapon FOR EPEE. Foil teaches you the conventions which you should follow in epee. Epee teaches... not a lot that would help with foil.

Spoken as someone who hasn't fenced any high level epee, I'm guessing.
Decent epee requires a finer sense of distance than same-level foil.

And anyone who thinks that you don't need to understand, at least subconsciously priority to fence (good) epee is ... wrong.

[Gav]

Foil was originaly designed as a training weapon FOR EPEE. Foil teaches you the conventions which you should follow in epee.

What makes you think that?


Nice bit of trolling though.

[TBean]

I think your larger issue will be lack of experienced foil fencers - without a contingent of individuals with a clue you will be like the blind leading the blind. A coach can be a part of the equation, your team mates fill in the rest. Without someone(s) who understand RoW and how to referee your quest to train in the weapon will be more difficult.

If this really is an interest of yours, is there another club that has an established group of foil fencers. I think that would be more productive for you.

[Kimmuriel]

Kimmuriel - which club do you fence at? I used to fence at Honvéd.
Your best solution is maybe to head along to one of the more foil-oriented clubs (say MTK?) once a week or so - I'm sure they'd let you fence.

I am fencing at OSC (Ama-tőr), and I thought I should go to an other club. Well, my only chance is UTE, beacuse the other clubs are to far away from my home. I don't want to travel to a club for more than 1 hour, especially because I fence 4 or 5 times per week, for 2.5-3 hours on every day (This is the way how I'm trying to compensate the lack of fencing lessons with my coach, so I keep up practicing more and more). But my clubmates who taking lessons at UTE say that there are only just a few epeeists at UTE, and like I said I don't want to quit epee fencing. So it's hard to decide what should I do now.

I'm sure I would enjoy foil fencing, the main question is that is it possible to learn it from former foilist clubmates effectively or it takes too much time (because I know this is the harder way) and it's not worth to expend time on it.

[rory]

Why don't you just go to UTE once or twice a week?

Also, (having looked at the map), OSC is pretty central - Metro to Honved on Dozsa Gyorgy Ut will only take 20 mins... some foil there too.

[Kimmuriel]

Good point, but as far as I know Honvéd and MTK do not welcome adult beginners and amateurs, only serious competitors and young beginners.

[RITFencing]

Surely you jest...

Foil was originaly designed as a training weapon FOR EPEE. Foil teaches you the conventions which you should follow in epee. Epee teaches... not a lot that would help with foil.

Someone want to post Dr. Cox?

This was a long, long time ago in a galaxy far away.

Things have changed; all three weapons have their own identities now. With the timing change, epee is also much more transferable to foil than it once was.

[needle]

Foil was originaly designed as a training weapon FOR EPEE. Foil teaches you the conventions which you should follow in epee. Epee teaches... not a lot that would help with foil.

Oh PLEASE, not another one...
Foil was originally designed as a training weapon for smallsword. Whoever told you about it being training weapon for epee - ask for your money back

If foil really was training for epee, it would have given us epeeists yet another reason to make fun of it (as if we needed any more) ... but "magis amica Veritas" prevails.