Fencing Master Diploma – Need one?

[MdA]

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On the student side, I think there are a lot of coaches who don't feel that they have anything to learn. When Vladimir Nazlymov visited the DC area and did some seminars a few years ago, the turnout among the local coaches was very disappointing. Ego? Ignorance? Who can say?
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AE

RIT good points...it will take me a little time to answer. Allen's comment above hit on something I was already thinking....and has been mentioned here by Jason and others like Mr. E.

Some coaches don't like each other....can't spend a few hours in the same room together....or can't learn together. Don't want to admit to another coach that they may still have something to learn.

On the instructor side....some of our top coaches don't like each other....or as already mentioned many times....don't like members of the USFCA. I have to admit, there are a few that won't even speak to me. Ego, professional rivalries....for what?

[Phrogger]

On the student side, I think there are a lot of coaches who don't feel that they have anything to learn. When Vladimir Nazlymov visited the DC area and did some seminars a few years ago, the turnout among the local coaches was very disappointing. Ego? Ignorance? Who can say?

Could it also be that he went to an already saturated market? It may seem counter-intuitive to go to an area with fewer clubs. But the two clinics given in Raleigh by Michael Marx were well-attended, despite their above-average price ($300 for 2 1/2 days). At least half of those who attended, myself included, were there for coaching education. We jumped at the chance because you just don't see many of these type of events here. I hope we will see this kind of event again.

[Allen Evans]

Could it also be that he went to an already saturated market?

Perhaps. But at the time he gave these clinics, there was not much of a saber coaching presense in the DC/MD/VA area, despite a number of fencers and college teams in the area.

The athlete turnout was quite respectable (some 30-40 earch time) which leads me to believe that this was not an issue.

*shrug* but this is only opinion, not fact.

AE

[RITFencing]

So, all these top level coaches... where did they get their abilities? Training programs or coaches? Repetition of their own training as fencers, or extrapolation of their experience as fencers? Figured it out through knowledge o the game? Some mixture of the above, or something I completely missed?

It's an important question for someone looking to set up a program of coaching education... where do these elite level people come from? I know many of them have differing backgrounds, but are there any common threads or repeated themes?

[MdA]

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*shrug* but this is only opinion, not fact.
AE

Empirical ....that's my new word

[MdA]

So, all these top level coaches... where did they get their abilities? Training programs or coaches?

OK. Let's compare the two already mentioned...I think they are representative of the American coaching demographic

Nazlymov and Marx....anyone want to expand on their history?

I will contribute that Marx was trained by a French Fencing Master and former USFCA VP and current member of the Certification and Accreditation Board.

[oiuyt]

OK. Let's compare the two already mentioned...I think they are representative of the American coaching demographic

Nazlymov and Marx....anyone want to expand on their history?

I will contribute that Marx was trained by a French Fencing Master and former USFCA VP and current member of the Certification and Accreditation Board.

Michael Marx received his coaching education under Czajkowski at the Academy of Physical Education in Katowice, Poland.

-B

[RITFencing]

OK. Let's compare the two already mentioned...I think they are representative of the American coaching demographic

Nazlymov and Marx....anyone want to expand on their history?

I will contribute that Marx was trained by a French Fencing Master and former USFCA VP and current member of the Certification and Accreditation Board.

I think Michael also learned to coach in Poland for a while, though I could be wrong.

Nazlymov is a product of the Soviet system, which does not transfer very well to an American culture.

Even more important than who trained them, or what degrees they had, though, is the question of what was done to make them so good? That's what you really have to recreate.

[MdA]

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Even more important than who trained them, or what degrees they had, though, is the question of what was done to make them so good? That's what you really have to recreate.

Ahhhh....another hard question....get back to you in five years on this one.

Sounds like a good topic for a Masters thesis....hint....hint!

[RITFencing]

Ahhhh....another hard question....get back to you in five years on this one.

Sounds like a good topic for a Masters thesis....hint....hint!

Not necessarily that hard... many coaches advertise their own backgrounds to a greater or lesser extent on their websites.

I would look at top American born coaches and start from there... after all, these are going to be much more indicative of your target market than, say, Nazlymov and Korfanty.

If you can find common threads between, say Buckie Leach, Nat Goodhardtz, Mike D'Asaro Jr, Paul Soter, Mike Pederson, Mike Marx, Greg Masssialas and a few others, that would be a pretty good start.

[Allen Evans]

OK. Let's compare the two already mentioned...I think they are representative of the American coaching demographic

Representative how? Both were top athletes with significant results (Nazlymov more than Marx) and both recieved their coaching educations in Europe.

I suspect that this does not represent the vast majority of coaches in the US.

AE

[MdA]

Representative how? Both were top athletes with significant results (Nazlymov more than Marx) and both recieved their coaching educations in Europe.

I suspect that this does not represent the vast majority of coaches in the US.

AE

Sorry was thinking....our top coaches.

[MdA]

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To my knowledge, though, no one has ever tested some of these thoughts. I think that OFA, with their annual summer coaching clinics with Korfanty, has found a model that shows some promise. I would be curious if it really earns a lot of income for them, or works better as a self-promotion idea (which has its own merits).
AE

Vinnie and I tried with the Pan American Fencing Academy. It did not pay for itself and we had a free facility. We did not charge much at all...$50 for a weekend of instruction...but we had foundation support. It was considered development for Texas.

Some of our top coaches have told me....if you charge too little, coaches value it less...other have told me, "Don't give it away".

Perhaps, Marx has the right price and the right material. So is the Marx clinic repeatable? Phrogger would you go to one every 6 months?

[Allen Evans]

Sorry was thinking....our top coaches.

I think that's an easy enough conclusion. The vast majority of our top coaches (with a few exceptions that I can think of, and those only because I don't know all the details of their history) have been trained in Europe, or have had signifcant exposure to European training.

As you've pointed out before MdA....the top coaches aren't the market for any training or professional organization. Coaching education has to hit the middle and bottom levels of coaches in the US in order to prepare them to study with more advanced coaches, or give them the skills to aquire excellant teaching skills on their own.

One of the benefits of having a large number of European coaches come to the US in the last ten years has not been our exposure to their tremendous teaching skills (many of them are not tremendous teachers). What we have benefited from is many of these coaches have -- at the very least -- a strong grounding in the basic mechanics of fencing. I think that this alone has helped the US considerably*.

All you have to do is read a few weeks of threads on F.net to see that many of the responders lack a basic understanding of fencing mechanics. When you realise that many of these responders are also local coaches at the community or college level, a frightening picture starts to emerge. Educating these people should be the real mission of the USFCA, not issuing diplomas. I hope that your statements reflect a sea change in the USFCA. If so, it's about time, and welcome.

AE




*I'm not slighting the tremendous contributions of the top Foreign Coaches in the US, such as Petin, Nazlymov, Stawicki, Korfanty, Burdan, Kogler, Ma, and the rest. But they impact a very small number of fencers.

[MdA]

Educating these people should be the real mission of the USFCA, not issuing diplomas. I hope that your statements reflect a sea change in the USFCA. If so, it's about time, and welcome.
AE

I don't speak for the new USFCA administration because I am no longer a member of the Executive Committee...but I think I can say that education is Abdel's top priority....if we present a few diplomas along the way...I don't think that can hurt.

[MdA]

Just thought of something. Abdel Salem...by comparison was an Olympian in Egypt, then apprenticed himself to several top coaches here in America, Coaches College instructor, than Masters cert thru USFCA.

Here is his bio

[darius]

Perhaps, Marx has the right price and the right material

Having seen the material, and being influenced by it heavily, he has really good information. The price hasn't really been existent, and that's part of the problem...folks who ask to visit NWFC and hang out will get information, but you have to sit there and watch one of us giving a lesson with Michael quizzing you, then get subbed into the lesson as the coach...it comes out in dribs and drabs.

What I'd like to get happening at NWFC is something more formal, where such activities happens on a larger basis than one-on-one. Obviously, that means that you have to charge for that, but we also feel very strongly that there should be a (quality) product associated with that training. (And the charge doesn't have to be astronomical; if a coach is coming to a camp, they'll often bring their students, we just can't LOSE money on their attendance.) I don't like the Coaches College manuals, but they're better than nothing -- they're good for jogging one's memory from time to time.

My next goal is to keep the dialogue channels open, and TWO-WAY. If we bring people in and they get ideas from us, we'd love to hear about how they worked or didn't work back in the coaches' home environments, and even better, how they were modified.

darius

[MdA]

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What I'd like to get happening at NWFC is something more formal, where such activities happens on a larger basis than one-on-one. Obviously, that means that you have to charge for that, but we also feel very strongly that there should be a (quality) product associated with that training. (And the charge doesn't have to be astronomical; if a coach is coming to a camp, they'll often bring their students, we just can't LOSE money on their attendance.) darius

Why don't you present your attending coaches with certificates of attendance and record the number of hours. That way, if they might become interested in a diploma..someday in the distant future...they could get credit for your course.

[Allen Evans]

That way, if they might become interested in a diploma..someday in the distant future...they could get credit for your course.

A "course"....based on what criteria from the USFCA? Conforming to whose standards?

Don't get me wrong, Micheal is as good as they come, and I'[m sorry I missed the course in NC a few weeks ago. But an ad hoc approach to an educational goal is an example of exactly the sort of problems the USFCA creates for itself.

This is exactly why I think the USFCA needs to sit down and create specific criteria for each level of diploma that they offer. Not just "give a good lesson" but define what a good lesson is, what is the substance of each level of lesson, and how the levels are distinguished.

AE

[Allen Evans]

My next goal is to keep the dialogue channels open, and TWO-WAY. If we bring people in and they get ideas from us, we'd love to hear about how they worked or didn't work back in the coaches' home environments, and even better, how they were modified.

One of the failures of Coaches College is that it seems to make no attempt to track how their graduates eventually go on to perform. There seems to be no metric towards measuring success or failure, other than the ability to fill beds at the start of each session. There also seems to be no attempt to identify successful coaching canidates encourage their future attendance, or guide their training.

AE