Fencing Master Diploma – Need one?

[MdA]

No reason it has to only be one; certification is a minor thing for me but learning is always great.

Your right and learning is a part of certification. If you register at www.usfca.org, and login, you can view 41 Fencing Masters theses.

The library pages are available to "Members Only" so it will cost you a $35 Associates membership fee.

[Mr Epee]

I'm not going to bother reading this thread, but I will take the time to kick your soapbox down.

As a current student of Scandinavian sport culture, I can assure you that this is a structural dictation instead of a market demanded one. Until the US is a structurally dictated system, then the demand for certified coaches in Denmark is a non-starter.

Does the US market demand diploma Coaches ???

[MdA]

....
Does the US market demand diploma Coaches ???

No, I already told you...this is the "Wild Wild West" of fencing. We don't have any structure.

[Mr Epee]

No, I already told you...this is the "Wild Wild West" of fencing. We don't have any structure.

So you concede that bringing the case of demand (expressed in a single job posting, mind you) in Denmark has no bearing on the situation of certification in the US?

Which begs the question... what is the point of starting this thread?

At this point, the USFCA practically defines the concept of failed institution.

Unless you have a government that demands certification, or a market that fully understands, and values certification then the point of your organization can only be defined in terms of personal satisfaction and improvement.... AND given the fact that the USFCA admittedly has no real sustainable or even functional plans for long-term comprehensive coaching education/development, then thinking people are inclined, no, obliged to ignore your cries in the wilderness.

[MdA]

Bilge rat

[Mr Epee]

Bilge rat

I don't even know what that is.

Are you trying to be the punchline in a stereotype joke?

Smooth.

[MdA]

Pirate Definitions for the Coaching Corner

[Mr Epee]

Pirate Definitions for the Coaching Corner

Are you kidding me?

Did you seriously just refer me to a thread of dork talk that you authored yourself?

I guess that answers the question from my last post.

I'm so thankful that my dad doesn't post on teh internets. I really am.

[jBirch]

So, um, where does a kinesiology degree fit into all this talk of certification?

James.

[MdA]

Some of us prefer to be referred to as a "Letter of Marque." It just sounds more genteel.

-B

I'll trust Patrick O'Brian to have historical accuracy on the term being used to refer also to the person with such a letter.*

-B

* Everyone raise your hand if you know what series of books I'm currently re-reading.

He's a sailor, not a lawyer. *sniff*

AE

*raises hand*

Always knew you had excellent taste, Brad.

Are you kidding me?

Did you seriously just refer me to a thread of dork talk that you authored yourself?

I guess that answers the question from my last post.

I'm so thankful that my dad doesn't post on teh internets. I really am.

Yeh.. I am kidding you. Actually, I had some help from some other members of this forum with that "dork talk".

Last time, I recall it was religion...and now it's looks like age discrimination....again. Kids these days....no respect.

Gotta go now and care for my elderly mother.

[jBirch]

Gotta go now and care for my elderly mother.

Don't call your wife that: she's likely to take it the wrong way.

James.

[JEC]

..... If you register at www.usfca.org, and login, you can view 41 Fencing Masters theses.

The library pages are available to "Members Only" so it will cost you a $35 Associates membership fee.

Earlier this week, I was perusing the USFCA site and came across those theses. Some are at Prevot level, while many are Fencing Masters. It is an ecclectic collection of ideas about fencing pedagogy, psychology, armory, etc. I found them quite interesting, and a great benefit for the cost of membership. I understand that the website is slowly getting better.

In my professional organization (www.aesnet.org), I have been the chair of the web committee. We have a members-only message board (just like FNet), as well as many public resources including Slides/MP3/transcription of the main symposia of the Annual meeting for the past 5 years (see AES archive lectures at the bottom). Unlike in fencing, the American organization is the leader in education and research. We have not seen a drop in attendance despite placing these major lectures/symposia online about 4 months after the meeting. I know that would be a dream for the an organization with extremely limited resources such as USFCA (and even USFA), but putting some of those lectures for members only would increase the value of USFCA membership, perhaps helping MdA reach one of his goals.

[aamct2]

I really like JEC's idea. MdA, I know you're helping to do a clinic in San Antonio in April. Is there any chance you could get a friend to video tape and edit it? Then it could be streamed on the USFCA website, either in its entirety or in parts.

Adding streaming content wouldn't be hard for the webmaster to do, so long as their sufficient space on the servers. Mostly, the webmaster will just need digital copies of the content.

~aamct2

[MdA]

I really like JEC's idea. MdA, I know you're helping to do a clinic in San Antonio in April. Is there any chance you could get a friend to video tape and edit it? Then it could be streamed on the USFCA website, either in its entirety or in parts.

Adding streaming content wouldn't be hard for the webmaster to do, so long as their sufficient space on the servers. Mostly, the webmaster will just need digital copies of the content.

~aamct2

This is a great idea. JEC really knows education. According to our webmaster Rick, the video capability is already built into the new website framework. He has already loaded some voice recordings on the site in the officer section to keep records of our teleconferences....so I will check it out with him...and I will look into video. One of our members, Bob Block, videotaped our last clinic in September. We can test with those videos before the April 2009 clinic.

I need a volunteer with video editing experience and software to work with Bob and Rick. You know I can't do everything....and still answer your questions on f.net.

[MdA]

…..
As a current student of Scandinavian sport culture, I can assure you that this is a structural dictation instead of a market demanded one. Until the US is a structurally dictated system, then the demand for certified coaches in Denmark is a non-starter.
….Does the US market demand diploma Coaches ???

All kidding aside….it took some time to research this…

It appears that Denmark has many of the same problems that we have in the USA. There is currently no organization in Denmark that certifies Fencing Masters….their Amateur Federation organizes fencing coach education….just like ours…primarily at Level 1&2. But, they do not have an Academy of Arms like the USFCA and are not members of the AAI. This more than defines the concept of a “failed institution”…they don’t even have one. See below and the following link…please excuse the rough translation…you will need to use the google translator on the link.

There is some really good stuff in here about the first two levels…especially requiring certificates for all coaches working with fencers under the age of 15. But they also admit they have shortfall at the FM level….

While their requirement for FMs seems to be structurally dictated…. they don’t have a way to produce them. It still seems nice to have them. So which system is better?

"DFF Træneruddannelse Level 3 & 4: (I would equate these to the Prevot and Master level in the AAI system)
Due to the low number of qualified coaches in English fencing is currently not currently preparing a training description of these higher levels. JCR currently has a need to focus on training at Level 1 and 2; When there is udannet significantly more Level 1 and 2 coaches could be to develop descriptions of Level 3 (Diploma coach) & 4 (Education College coach). At that time, it must be clear as to how these 2 levels can be compared with various international fencing champion (Master) education. Although DIF's (and thus JRC) træneruddannelse structure based on EU cooperation "European Learning Network" (ENSSEE), this structure apparently not incorporated into the fencing master courses in leading national, European fencing federation or FIE. So far, it is recommended that the JRC with the support and guidance send any candidates for a fencing master courses in European neighbors."

http://www.faegtning.dk/sider/side_133.aspx

[telkanuru]

[JEC]

This is a great idea. JEC really knows education. According to our webmaster Rick, the video capability is already built into the new website framework. He has already loaded some voice recordings on the site in the officer section to keep records of our teleconferences....so I will check it out with him...and I will look into video. One of our members, Bob Block, videotaped our last clinic in September. We can test with those videos before the April 2009 clinic.

I need a volunteer with video editing experience and software to work with Bob and Rick. You know I can't do everything....and still answer your questions on f.net.

Thanks, MdA.

I also taped the clinic, and perhaps, you might remember that I edited the 2002 World Cup Men's Epee DVD with slow motion. This was the first DVD used as a model for subsequent Fencing Pictures DVDs. I have the software (Vegas, Pinnacle, and others) and cameras for SD and HD. Perhaps, we can get it done during late December break. Once edited, we could place it online. Unlike my professional society, I would recommend that these resources are kept for members-only to enhance the value of USFCA membership.

[jjefferies]

Sorry for coming into this thread so late. But after reading MdA's original post I started wondering and compared the described situation in Denmark to those I'm familiar with in Northern California. 250 members is larger than some of our local divisions. Last time I had reason to check NorCal had something over 500 total members spread among some 33 clubs (listed on the BayCup website) which translates to 33-66 coaches. I'm assuming a minimum of 1 coach per club though UCBerkeley's coach has his own club. And then most clubs have at least 1 or two assistants. With GGFC and Halberstadt, the largest, having multiple coaches and assistants. Halberstadt probably has the most - I'm swagging it at around 10.

My point? The model in Denmark is much different than those that I'm familiar with and comparing their needs and requirements to those in the US is rather an apple and orange comparison. The job description makes the position sound like a hands on coaching job -- With 250 students. Gimme a break. Cal is totally overwhelmed at the start of the season when we have gotten as many as 120 sign up. We can't even begin to try and teach properly until the number of newbies drops down below 20 which it does. But then reading more of the job description there are suggestions that volunteers - assistants do much of the work with beginners. Hmmm, that can be kind of spotty. Which brings us back around to the issue of credentialing.

I can agree with MdA's main thrust which is the US needs to improve. I'm not sure that the whole pirate thing is either helpful or appropriate. Rather I'm all for popularizers of the sport. And most particularly in communities outside of the big metro areas. The more coaches the more students it seems to me. If there is a finite number of students available I don't think that fencing in the US has yet found its limit. Also students move around - something that deserves comment on in another thread. And I think the product of quality coaching should be self evident and attract the local talent. My past experience is that the European model of education and that of the US may have a lot of parallels in common but are still very different. I'm thinking that MdA would like to see more of the European model imposed on the US and suspect that that will only be frustrated by the nature of the country, it's geography and socio-economic history. All too complex to delve into in a short thread.

[MdA]

.... I have the software (Vegas, Pinnacle, and others) and cameras for SD and HD. Perhaps, we can get it done during late December break. Once edited, we could place it online.

Thanks JEC, This sounds like a great idea. I will get with the webmaster and find out what file formats work best. Let's work on it during the break.

[MdA]

....
Does the US market demand diploma Coaches ???

jjefferies...thanks for your important observations. It doesn't need to be a European model in the US. I just want a program that meets our growing needs.

My point is that I believe the US market should demand diploma Fencing Masters. Apparently, I am not the only one...the entire world needs more quality coaching. This is an important issue at the highest levels of our sport.

“The impressive increase in the number of affiliated federations is no
accident, …...Even more encouraging is the number of fencing license holders in each
federation. According to the information available, 2008-2009 marks an
increase of 25 to 30% depending on the country.
This increase requires significant changes to the facilities. We are in need
of Fencing Masters and training centres.”

http://fie.ch/download/magazines/2008/Escrime65.pdf

RENÉ ROCH
Président de la FIE


"At a time when, with help from video-assisted refereeing, slow
motions perfectly highlight each flaw in the technical
execution, how can fencing improve further? This is a
significant issue as the quality of the training of fencing
masters in the countries where this training exists is deteriorating
and total empiricism is observed in those where
it doesn’t or no longer exists. ….. I am convinced
that our national federations
need permanent education
structures, as they will guarantee
our technical heritage
and make fencing even more
attractive, authentic and
Olympic."


Ioan Pop
FIE’s Technical
Director

http://fie.ch/download/magazines/2008/Escrime64.pdf