In a New Collective Approach to Training, European Fencing Goes All Out

[Mo]

This new collective approach, launched in 2006 by the international charitable foundation For the Future of Fencing, allows athletes from across Europe to face their competition, observe styles, and derive the true benefits of cooperation that experts believe can only boost their standing on the world stage. In stands in contrast to competitions of previous years, at which athletes were separated out, arriving in dribs and drabs from their home nations, and were thrust straight into competition, then shipped back home.

Cody and Seth are doing this over Christmas for Epee. (also)(heehee)
It is about time.
Ok Saber and foil people, get busy.
Cooperation is developed when people share and work together, going on the principle that the better one person gets, the better everyone gets. It is a synergistic effect.

The Momster

[whtouche]

what ?

[Inquartata]

Sounds suspiciously like the Borg Collective approach to me.

[Mo]

what ?

Read the front page, http://www.fencing.net/news/world/in...s-all-out.html

All the Euro teams, except saber for some reason, are having a big fencing camp to share what they have learned. They are trying to improve the entire group by having fencers all fence each other.
Cody and Seth are doing the same thing at the Olympic Center http://www.fencing.net/news/us-fenci...epee-camp.html during the Christmas break.
It would be great to do the same thing for saber and epee fencers, both males and females together, maybe this summer.
Having the opportunity to fence your guts out just seems like a really good idea.

The Momster

[Fencing Mom]

Sounds suspiciously like the Borg Collective approach to me.

And resistance is futile.

[Allen Evans]

Considering some of the stories told about the founder of "Future of Fencing", you might be right....

AE

[MdA]

I heard he is running for President of the FIE.

[Inquartata]

All the Euro teams, except saber for some reason, are having a big fencing camp to share what they have learned. They are trying to improve the entire group by having fencers all fence each other.

Maybe the European Union is planning to force the FIE to do away with multiple national teams and replace them with one unified EU team...

[Inquartata]

And resistance is futile.

Not according to the armourers.

[Mom2fencrs]

So are the rest of you saying that the "bring the top fencers together" approach for sabre won't work here in the US? I would like to see coaches offer such a camp to the top 10 fencers in Junior Sabre and the top 5 in Cadet Sabre. The coaches could run a camp at a facility like Nellya, fencers could train and finally feel like a team instead of individuals coming together for NACS or Jr WC events.

The opportunity could be offered directly to the fencers rather than through the USFA...:

[lewis]

I thought the camps Yury Gelman ran were "national team' camps. ???? He runs one at his club from Christmas to New Years and it is advertised as national team camp. Last year it was open to top 8 seniors, top 4 juniors and top 2 cadets. The aforementioned were sponsored by the usfa. Others were allowed to attend and pay I believe. He also alternated the time slots so there was an 'intermediate' camp. Very well attended as many less accomplished fencers got to rub elbows with the Olympic hopefuls. He also advertises his summer camp as National Team Camp. In former years that year's national team members were sponsored by the usfa to go and so it was well attended and very strong. Last year the usfa did not sponsor the national team (budget cuts) and it was pretty (very) weak. There is also a jr ms sabre camp between the 2 world cups in January. These camps seem to me to vary in their ability to forge a team depending on the personnel involved.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Part of the problem is political gamesmanship among the various coaches. Let's take sabre as an example. In the last Quad, Ed Korfanty was the WS National Coach, Yury Gelman the MS top dog, and coached one of the WS National Team members, in addition to other top WS competitors. You also had Arkady Burdan with a 4th team member at Nellya in the mix.

Each of these coaches holds individually scheduled camps at their home club, and with only a few exceptions (including one time Ed and Arkady held a dual camp at Nellya), each fencer generally attends their own home club camp, rather than gather together at a single camp--even when the National Coach's camp is labeled an "Official (sometimes "mandatory") National Training Camp." These camps are huge money makers for the clubs, and the presence of an Olympian or National Team Member is often used as a marketing draw for each coach's camp. The exception for this is the "training camp" for the World Championship teams overseas, but that's generally limited to the 4 Team Members, (and is largely aimed at acclimatization, rather than actual training) and doesn't have the synergistic attributes of a larger camp environment.

So naturally, the coaches are often quite protective of their turf--to the point where it is akin to heresy to attend another coach's camp.

This is why the USFA needs to supervise the creation and operation of a true "National Training Camp" and take it out of the hands of the individual coaches, should a concept like a several times a year group training session among the best and brightest talents in fencing be deemed worthwhile.

It will need to be in a neutral location, and administered by someone at the USFA--the High Performance Director might be a good point person. Otherwise, we will continue to see the fragmented system currently in place that generally seems to serve the needs of the clubs & coaches more than the developmental needs of the athletes.

[Mom2fencrs]

Yes, we were at the Christmas Camp last year at MFC. It was very good. Yury had the Olympic team one practice divide into 2 teams and fence each other to 45. At each 5 point interval he would stop the fencing and talk to the younger fencers about what actions had occurred, what they "think they saw" etc. and the Olympic fencers were engaged in the camp and process the entire time. I think Yury does an awesome job at this.

[Mom2fencrs]

I was at the MSabre team camp between the Budapest and Goppingen events in January......

[Capt. Slo-mo]

That's one area that has had some promise over the years: the "in between the World Cups" training camp.

However; there often are not that many younger fencers who can afford the time or the money for a 10+ day investment in attending 2 World Cups or Grand Prixs, and then stay over between. It's a lot of airfare, hotels and meals, especially in Euro land.

I'd like to see as many of these camps continue as possible.

But in the meantime, I think the internationally-aspiring Cadet and Junior fencers would hugely benefit from some 20-30 person megacamps here in the US, two or three times a year.

[Redblade]

Sounds suspiciously like the Borg Collective approach to me.

Socialism? Well, one of the -isms. Very suspicious, that. Very European. Can't be trusted.

[Inquartata]

Certainly wouldn't work for the Veteran teams. Much more difficult than herding cats, that. Much.

[Mihail]

Part of the problem is political gamesmanship among the various coaches.

This is what I think is interesting:

The US is obviously huge and in sheer numbers has more fencers than any other nation. However, for years the national coaches have tried to emulate the European style: a small pool of fencers from whom to draw their national team all learning from one coach with one set of training principles.

I always thought this was weird. We have such a huge volume of fencers and coaches that we should use it as an advantage. With the proper organization, which is admittedly very difficult, we could use our big numbers and wide diversity to develop a strong program.

Now, for whatever reason, probably because they are scared by the Asian and American success in Beijing, Europeans are enacting this new, collective approach to training.

We should stay ahead of the curve and embrace this method. To use your example, Yury, Arkady, and Ed should collaborate and come up with a method to yield the most productive training for fencers. Jealous guarding of students, credit for success, and fencing "styles" is not going to help anyone.

[edew]

Nevertheless, there are some clubs in the US that advertise camps and if anyone (good) from outside the camp attends, the home club fencers take advantage by learning every trick there is to beat that person and provide no useful knowledge going the other way.

In that sense, I personally don't think camps are a good way to go, unless the clubs that are doing the camps are well known to each other.

A more straightforward way, and espoused by the OP, is to have competitions where people from different countries (for Europe, or clubs in the US) attend and fence each other often. Then, the fencers go back and work on making improvements to their techniques and tactics.

Gee, what type of fencing program would have something like this? A series of competitions where people from many clubs attend and learn from their results?

[Capt. Slo-mo]

...Yury, Arkady, and Ed should collaborate and come up with a method to yield the most productive training for fencers. Jealous guarding of students, credit for success, and fencing "styles" is not going to help anyone.

VM:

So who is responsible for breaking this cycle of possessiveness? The HP Director? The USFA? The USOC? The Pastafarians?